Hall of Fame argument for Biggio, Thomas

dirty

EOG Master
Dayn Perry
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Thursday was a good day for milestones.
On Thursday, Frank Thomas of the Blue Jays bashed career home-run number 500, and Craig Biggio of the Astros notched career hit number 3,000. Both benchmarks are as hallowed as they come in baseball, and the fact that they've been reached once again raises a couple of questions. One, should Thomas and Biggio be bound for Cooperstown now that they've made history? And, two, do 500 homers and 3,000 hits really mean that much anymore? As for the first query, the answer is yes for both players. For Biggio, the case is rather simple. He may lack the superstar veneer of some Hall of Famers, but the numbers speak for themselves.
Presently, Biggio (besides being a freshly minted member of the 3,000-hit club) has the sixth most doubles in baseball history, and he ranks 15th all-time in runs scored. As well, he ranks 21st all-time in times on base, 27th in extra-base hits, 31st in total bases, 23rd in games played, 58th in walks, 61st in stolen bases and holds the modern mark for times hit by pitch. Let's also not forget that Biggio is a seven-time All-Star and a four-time Gold Glove winner.
What really makes Biggio special is that he put up all those numbers while manning a premium defensive position. When you can produce like that at the plate and hold down a spot in the middle infield, you're a special player. For his career, Biggio, who became a full-time second baseman in 1992, boasts a batting line of .282 AVG/.365 OBP/.435 SLG. Over that same span, the average major-league second baseman has hit .270 AVG/.336 OBP/.391 SLG. As you can see, Biggio, for many years, has produced at a high level relative to his peer group of second basemen. Throw his longevity into the mix, and you've got a Hall of Famer.
<table align="right" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="275"> <tbody><tr><td> </td></tr> <tr><td class="caption">Now a member of the 3,000-hit club, Craig Biggio is a sure-fire Hall of Famer. (Pat Sullivan / Associated Press)</td></tr> </tbody></table>
Thomas' case, meanwhile, is a bit more complicated. There's no disputing his offensive merits: besides the 500 career bombs, he also ranks 16th all-time in on-base percentage and 18th all-time in slugging percentage. When it comes to getting on base and hitting for power ? the two most important things a hitter can do ? few can compare to Thomas. He's 48th all-time in total bases, 12th all-time in walks, 26th in RBI, 38th in times on base, 66th in doubles and 72nd in runs scored. The Big Hurt also has two MVPs and five All-Star Games to his credit. Let's also not forget that from 1993 through 1997, Thomas enjoyed a peak that compares favorably to almost anyone.
Detractors, of course, will point to the fact that he's been a designated hitter for most of his career. Since arriving in the majors in 1990, Thomas has spent 1,164 games at DH and played first base in only 971 games. He also hasn't played regularly in the field since 1997. That Thomas doesn't provide any defensive value should certainly count against his case. However, is it enough to overcome his tremendous offensive bestowals? It shouldn't be.
Even though there are no DHs currently enshrined in Cooperstown, the designated hitter rule, like it or not, is part of the game. It's a codified element of baseball. Many people don't like that, but their bleats to that effect change nothing. Few would argue that Thomas ? with his career .303 average, his 500 homers, his 1,596 walks ? isn't a Hall of Famer based on what he did at the plate alone. However, the DH backlash might rear its ugly head.
Of course, we've also enshrined many players who were liabilities with the glove ? the great Lou Gehrig, for instance. If he'd had the DH at his disposal, he would've been more valuable to his team because the Yankees could've trotted out a better defender at first base. Similarly, Thomas would've have been less valuable had he played first base instead of DH for the latter decade of his career. Curiously, though, that would've cemented his Hall-of-Fame status for many. Those who take such a stance put ideology over common sense. Frank Thomas is one of the best hitters ever to play the game ? that's why he's a Hall of Famer.
On another level, the cases of Biggio and Thomas provide a jumping off point into a discussion of what 3,000 hits and 500 homers mean these days. Biggio became the 27th player to notch at least 3,000 hits, and Thomas became just the 21st player to reach the 500-homer threshold. So they're dwelling in rarified air. Still, the perception is that these honors have been diluted somewhat over the years. Part of this is natural ? the longer the game goes on, the more players reach those benchmarks. Part of it, however, is also that fans and media feel as though offensive accomplishments aren't as hard won as they once were. The smaller ballparks have something to do with that, as does steroid angst.
With that in mind, let's take a look at how many entrants into these exclusive clubs each decade has produced:
<table class="bgBdr" border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr class="bgHdr1"><td colspan="13"> Milestones over the years</td></tr> <tr> <td class="bgHdr2" align="left">Stat</td> <td class="bgHdr2" align="left">1890-99</td> <td class="bgHdr2" align="left">1900-09</td> <td class="bgHdr2" align="left">1910-19</td> <td class="bgHdr2" align="left">1920-29</td> <td class="bgHdr2" align="left">1930-39</td> <td class="bgHdr2" align="left">1940-49</td> <td class="bgHdr2" align="left">1950-59</td> <td class="bgHdr2" align="left">1960-69</td> <td class="bgHdr2" align="left">1970-79</td> <td class="bgHdr2" align="left">1980-89</td> <td class="bgHdr2" align="left">1990-99</td> <td class="bgHdr2" align="left">2000-07</td> </tr> <tr class="bgC"> <td align="left">3,000 hits</td> <td align="left">1</td> <td align="left">0</td> <td align="left">2</td> <td align="left">3</td> <td align="left">0</td> <td align="left">1</td> <td align="left">1</td> <td align="left">0</td> <td align="left">7</td> <td align="left">1</td> <td align="left">7</td> <td align="left">4</td> </tr> <tr class="bgC"> <td align="left">500 HRs</td> <td align="left">0</td> <td align="left">0</td> <td align="left">0</td> <td align="left">1</td> <td align="left">0</td> <td align="left">2</td> <td align="left">0</td> <td align="left">5</td> <td align="left">4</td> <td align="left">2</td> <td align="left">2</td> <td align="left">5</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
As you can see, there's a general upward trend in both categories. There are many reasons for this phenomenon, but the important thing is that baseball is producing members of the 3,000-hit and 500 home-run clubs at a faster rate these days. It's also worth noting that everyone who's reached either or both marks and is eligible is in the Hall of Fame. Had Fred McGriff notched just seven more homers, he would've put that streak to the test. Ditto for Harold Baines, had he reached 3,000 hits. Of course, there's always Rafael Palmeiro. Palmeiro slinked away from the game with 3,020 hits and 569 home runs in his dossier. However, his steroids use in tandem with the popular notion that he wasn't quite Cooperstown stuff will almost certainly doom his candidacy. In one fell swoop, 3,000 hits and 500 homers will no longer guarantee you a bronze bust.
Palmeiro's aren't the typical circumstances, but this is generally the evolution of things. After all, once upon a time, tallying 400 homers meant you were headed for the Hall of Fame. But then came along Darrell Evans, Dave Kingman, McGriff, Jose Canseco and others. It's possible ? probable, even ? that one day we'll view 500 homers and 3,000 hits in a similar light. Barry Bonds is the only active player likely to reach 3,000 hits in the near future, and he's almost certainly bound for the Hall (after, perhaps, a punitive snub on the first ballot). As for 500 homers, Alex Rodriguez, Jim Thome, Manny Ramirez and Gary Sheffield are all within spitting distance. Of those players, only Rodriguez and Ramirez are shoe-in Hall of Famers. So perhaps further devaluing is in the offing.


Biggio and Thomas, by all rights, should be voted into the Baseball Hall of Fame. However, their most noteworthy accomplishments ? the 3,000 hits and the 500 homers ? don't mean as much as they once did. Going forward, 3,000 hits will likely carry more assurances than 500 homers, as the latter is being cheapened at a higher rate. But the guaranteed spot in Cooperstown is likely a thing of the past.
Dayn Perry is a frequent contributor to FOXSports.com and author of the new book, "Winners: How Good Baseball Teams Become Great Ones" (Available now at Amazon.com).


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winkyduck

TYVM Morgan William!!!
Re: Hall of Fame argument for Biggio, Thomas

Biggio is a LOCK

Thomas is, too, unless they can somehow get him involved with Steroids

NO WAY Biggio took steroids - if he did he needs his money back
 

marlboro8425

EOG Senior Member
Re: Hall of Fame argument for Biggio, Thomas

biggio def lock, thomas might take longer to get in because of his long stint as a DH, but he may also have 600 by the time he is done and when he was in his prime, not many were better for that 7 or 8 year stretch.
 
Re: Hall of Fame argument for Biggio, Thomas

MOLITOR (1,000+ games), BRETT (506), REGGIE (630), and others have played many a game at DH.


PUCKET 81 games, Boggs 102, FISK 166, EVEN HANK AARON PLAYED 202 at DH.
 
Re: Hall of Fame argument for Biggio, Thomas

BIG HURT PLAYED 971 at first and 1164 at DH.

Winfield 419 at DH, YAZ 411 at DH, YOUNT 138,
 

dirty

EOG Master
Re: Hall of Fame argument for Biggio, Thomas

Both should be Locks for the Hall....especially Biggio
 

mofome

Banned
Re: Hall of Fame argument for Biggio, Thomas

the hall of fame should only have 4 people.

1) cal ripken
2) frank robinson
3) eddie murry
4) billy ripken


:bank:
 

winkyduck

TYVM Morgan William!!!
Re: Hall of Fame argument for Biggio, Thomas

Thomas on the first ballot; Biggio never.

Reverse it - and you are closer to it

Biggio is a LOCK and probably first ballot - he put up big time numbers and more importantly - LOVED by the media - the same people who vote people into the HIF

Biggio - LOCK!
 
Re: Hall of Fame argument for Biggio, Thomas

Everyone knows the 4 greatest Baseball players of all time were New York Yankees:

1-Babe Ruth...

2-Lou Gehrig...

3-Joe Dimaggio...

4-Mickey Mantle...
 
Re: Hall of Fame argument for Biggio, Thomas

the hall of fame should only have 4 people.

1) cal ripken
2) frank robinson
3) eddie murry
4) billy ripken


:bank:

No, no! it's got to be:

1) J.R. Richard
2) Mike Scott
3) Dave Smith
4) Joe Sambito

:bank::bank:
 
Re: Hall of Fame argument for Biggio, Thomas

The Best 5 players of all time are:

1. Babe Ruth
2. Willie Mays
3. Barry Bonds
4. Lou Gherig
5. Ken Griffey, Jr.
 

winkyduck

TYVM Morgan William!!!
Re: Hall of Fame argument for Biggio, Thomas

The Best 5 players of all time are:

1. Babe Ruth
2. Willie Mays
3. Barry Bonds
4. Lou Gherig
5. Ken Griffey, Jr.

let's see now

Henry Aaron not on the list - YIKES! CAN'T put Griffey because he was hurt too much. i can live with Babe, Mays and GEHRIG although Gehrig is someone i could remove without too much argument

take off Bonds - steroids removes him and Griffey was too hurt

as for the 2 spots now open:

Henry Aaron: MUST be on the list and any list w/o him is a joke

now down to 1 spot:

names to consider:

Frank Robinson
Cy Young
Phil Nevin
Mark Kotsay
Tim Wallach
Mike Lamb
Brent Mayne
Reed Johnson (see a pattern here)

but the name i am putting in the T5 - i am doing so not because he belongs there NOW - but because when all is said and done he will be on this list:

A-Rod: Say what you will about his post-season "success" but the numbers he has put up so far and will by the time his career ends will be the best ever in many categories. unless something happens he WILL take over for Bonds on th all-time HR list and he will be one of the greatest players ever

so MY T5 is:

1. Babe Ruth
2. Willie Mays
3. Henry Aaron
4. Lou Gehrig
5. A-Rod
 
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