How a former President responded to torture

Those who never learned history have no idea that they are repeating it. . . .


<table cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="650"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2"></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"> Roosevelt was right: Waterboarding wrong
By: Daniel A. Rezneck
October 31, 2007 07:13 PM EST

</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" class="story" valign="top"> There is nothing new under the sun.
Just consider the practice known as ?waterboarding,? which has caused Senate Democrats to suggest they will block confirmation of Attorney General-designate Michael Mukasey because, while he decries the practice, he said he could not comment on its legality. The Bush administration has said it considers the practice to be humane and to fall within the Geneva Convention.
But waterboarding was also a prime subject of controversy in Congress and in the U.S. more than 100 years ago.
The occasion was the Philippine insurrection, which began soon after the American victory in the Spanish-American War of 1898. It soon became clear that the American liberation of the Philippines from Spanish rule did not mean freedom for the Filipinos but annexation by the United States.
The Filipinos fought back savagely against the American occupation, committing many atrocities.
American soldiers responded with what was called the ?water cure? or ?Chinese water torture.? As described in a 1902 congressional hearing: ?A man is thrown down on his back and three or four men sit on his arms and legs and hold him down, and either a gun barrel or a rifle barrel or a carbine barrel or a stick as big as a belaying pin ... is simply thrust into his jaws, ... and then water is poured onto his face, down his throat and nose, ... until the man gives some sign of giving in or becomes unconscious. ... His suffering must be that of a man who is drowning but who cannot drown.?
Edmund Morris, in the second volume of his brilliant biography of Theodore Roosevelt, recounts how a master politician took over the situation. Roosevelt met with his Cabinet and demanded a full briefing on the Philippine situation. Elihu Root, the secretary of war, reported that an officer accused of the water torture had been ordered to stand trial.
Dissatisfied, Roosevelt sent a cable to the commander of the U.S. Army in the Philippines, stating:
?The president desires to know in the fullest and most circumstantial manner all the facts, ... for the very reason that the president intends to back up the Army in the heartiest fashion in every lawful and legitimate method of doing its work; he also intends to see that the most vigorous care is exercised to detect and prevent any cruelty or brutality and that men who are guilty thereof are punished. Great as the provocation has been in dealing with foes who habitually resort to treachery, murder and torture against our men, nothing can justify or will be held to justify the use of torture or inhuman conduct of any kind on the part of the American Army.?
Roosevelt also ordered the court-martial of the American general on the island of Samar, where some of the worst abuses had occurred. He did so ?under conditions which will give me the right of review.? The court-martial cleared the general of the charges, found only that he had behaved with excessive zeal and ?admonished? him against repetition.
Roosevelt responded by disregarding the verdict of the court-martial and ordering the general?s dismissal from the Army. Morris wrote that Roosevelt?s decision ?won universal praise? from Democrats, who congratulated him for acknowledging cruelty in the Philippine campaign, and from Republicans, who said that he had ?upheld the national honor.?
The Anti-Imperialist League, the principal foe of the annexationist policies that followed the Spanish-@American War, conceded that they had been out-@maneuvered by Roosevelt. Charles Francis Adams, a leading anti-imperialist, wrote to Carl Schurz that their cause was lost because of Theodore Roosevelt: ?I think he has been very adroit. He has conciliated almost everyone.?
So although it is true that there is nothing new under the sun, it is also true that history does not always repeat itself and presidents rarely learn from their predecessors.

Daniel A. Rezneck, an amateur historian, is a former president of the District of Columbia bar.
</td> </tr> <tr> <td> TM & ? THE POLITICO & POLITICO.COM, a division of Allbritton Communications Company
</td></tr></tbody></table>Roosevelt was right: Waterboarding wrong - Politico.com Print View
 

ZZ CREAM

EOG Master
Re: How a former President responded to torture

Torture is never okay to be sanctioned by the government, any government, including our own.
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

If you clearly define who and what the enemy is:

why is torture a bad thing?
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

Who or what the enemy is means nothing, and is totally irrelevant. What matters is who we are. Americans don't torture!! At least they didn't until the current regime.
Unlike today, America once faced enemies that were actual threats to our survival. Americans of that era didn't feel the need to resort to torturing Germans and Japanese. Why do the current "torturers" feel the need to do so with the current rag-tag bunch of Allah-seekers, whose threat to America isn't even a blip on the screen compared to that of Nazi Germany or the Japanese Empire
in World War II.
And the playground retort of "they do it to us" means nothing either. America is not the type of country that sets its behavioral boundaries by what the lowest peoples on the earth do. We do--or did at one time--what's right; not what we think we can get away with.
And I haven't even begun the discussion about how torturing doesn't even get solid information, rather it gets whatever the prisoner thinks the torturer wants to hear. . . .
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

Who or what the enemy is means nothing, and is totally irrelevant. What matters is who we are. Americans don't torture!! At least they didn't until the current regime.
Unlike today, America once faced enemies that were actual threats to our survival. Americans of that era didn't feel the need to resort to torturing Germans and Japanese. Why do the current "torturers" feel the need to do so with the current rag-tag bunch of Allah-seekers, whose threat to America isn't even a blip on the screen compared to that of Nazi Germany or the Japanese Empire
in World War II.
And the playground retort of "they do it to us" means nothing either. America is not the type of country that sets its behavioral boundaries by what the lowest peoples on the earth do. We do--or did at one time--what's right; not what we think we can get away with.
And I haven't even begun the discussion about how torturing doesn't even get solid information, rather it gets whatever the prisoner thinks the torturer wants to hear. . . .

Great reply, I agree completely.
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

I guess we need to define what torture is too

Of course it has to have an end besides just cruelty

obtaining enemy intelligence etc.

How can we know what really happening behind the trenches? I dont know thats for sure

If said allegations are true then im with you.

But why is our knee jerk reaction to condemn our own government?

Sad state when the people dont trust our own govt. and I mean in general not you
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

Given recent history, our government doesn't deserve much trust, and they have no one to blame but their selfs.
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

"we are the enemy?" Oh you have got to be kidding me.

You can be certain that the real enemy uses torture tactics and do things to our American soldiers that we would never THINK of doing to them. Do we hear about this in today's liberal media? No. What we do hear about is our soldiers forcing prisoners to get in a cheerleader pyramid or put on a dog collar. Give me a fucking break. If WWII was fought with today's media we would have lost.
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

I took ZZ's comment to be more along the lines of "what if the government decided an American citizen was the enemy?" The government has already done this, of course. Thus, if you are gung ho about torturing "the enemy" you should be aware that you are advocating our government torturing American citizens. . . .
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

I do not look at American citizens who have not taken up arms against America to be the enemy.
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

1) The Constitution protects all citizens, whether they're alleged to have taken up arms or not. I think we can agree that torture is unconstitutional, no matter what the accusations are or whether the citizen is even guilty or not.

2) Who get to "decide" whether or not any particular American citizen has or has not taken up arms against the U.S? The government?? That is what trials are for; it's not a decision that the government gets to make on its own say-so. Up to now, the government has decided that torturing American citizens is A-OK merely because they so it is so.

The concept described above which you seem to support is much more dangerous to our "free" way of life than any rag-headed moron with a virgin fetish could ever be. . . .Why would they need to destroy us if we do it to ourselves?
 
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ZZ CREAM

EOG Master
Re: How a former President responded to torture

"we are the enemy?" Oh you have got to be kidding me.

You can be certain that the real enemy uses torture tactics and do things to our American soldiers that we would never THINK of doing to them. Do we hear about this in today's liberal media? No. What we do hear about is our soldiers forcing prisoners to get in a cheerleader pyramid or put on a dog collar. Give me a fucking break. If WWII was fought with today's media we would have lost.
So if someone rapes you, it is alright to rape somebody else? This is your reasoning. I agree that our media is way too in bed with the government and George Bush........we need a more independent media that does not buy into all of the lies that George bush has fed us through the media.
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

well I for one an perfectly fine with torturing American citizens to pose a threat to us IF that helps stop more harm coming to America and its innocent citizens...I'm not in favor of torturing just for the hell of it but I am in favor of torture if it helps get crucial information about everything and anything that would benefit America (battle plans, terrorist attack plans, locations of the enemy, etc...)
 

ZZ CREAM

EOG Master
Re: How a former President responded to torture

well I for one an perfectly fine with torturing American citizens to pose a threat to us IF that helps stop more harm coming to America and its innocent citizens...I'm not in favor of torturing just for the hell of it but I am in favor of torture if it helps get crucial information about everything and anything that would benefit America (battle plans, terrorist attack plans, locations of the enemy, etc...)
So, you have no problem with other countries torturing our soldiers for the same reasons, eh?
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

I'm amazed at how many people would render the sacrifices made by our forefathers meaningless by destroying the Constitution. The men who made the ultimate sacrifice at Yorktown, Gettysburg, Belleau Wood, Omaha Beach, Chosin Reservoir, Hue, and Fallujah believed in something greater than themselves. That something was the concept of America. The greatness of America is embodied in the blueprint for our noble experiment; the Constitution. The Constitution guarantees that certain rights of Americans are inalienable, among them are the right to be free from cruel and unusual punishment. Moreover, the Constitution provides that rights not explicitly granted to the government are reserved to the people. I can assure you that the Constitution nowhere grants the government the right to torture--for any reason. Rather, the Constitution grants those accused of an offense the right to due process, assistance of counsel, trial before his peers, compulsory presence of witnesses, the right to confront his accusers, fair trial before an unbiased tribunal and freedom from unreasonable search and seizure. NOT ONE of these guaranteed rights comport with torture.
To be "perfectly fine with torturing American citizens. . . ." spits in the face of those who gave all in that it equates the Constitution as some sort of "suggestion" to be disregarded as if it were a piece of toilet paper stuck to the bottom of your jackboot. . . .
Understand that when you start taking away other's constitutional rights, yours are sure to follow. . . .
"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."

If you want to eliminate the Constitution, at least have the balls to admit it; don't be shy. . . .
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

so I guess you are an advocate for Jose Padilla

anyways...sometimes you have to take drastic measures and the legal process simply takes too long sometimes to get the jump on whatever it is we need to find out...therefore, in those situations, I say it is ok to do whatever is necessary to protect America

I dont know anyone who would disagree with torturing an American citizen who poses a threat to America...would you have been in favor of torturing Timothy McVeigh to stop the OK City bombing?
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." There will alway be some expediency or "emergency" to rationalize taking extreme measures. Because the Founding Fathers were very aware of human nature, the Constitution is designed to place checks on the exercise of power by the government, which is after all a construct of men. The point here is not the exception of someone like McVeigh, rather, the point is the other hundreds of people, guilty or innocent, who would be subjected to torture because "time is of the essence" or "the bomb is ticking" or "America is under attack" or other such and assorted rationalization to perform evil. There will always be earnest men of good intentions who know what they must do is "right."
Moreover, how would anyone have known that McVeigh was guilty of planting a bomb before it blew up? He was guilty of doing so, but we only know from hindsight. Again, the point here is not McVeigh, rather, it's the innocent guy walking his dog near the scene who resembles McVeigh, to use your specific example. Under your "ok to do whatever is necessary" scenario, the dog walker could be tortured; the example demonstrates the multitude of persons who would be allowed to be tortured under your vision of America--innocents and well as the guilty, since "time is of the essence."

In short, there will be occasions where the guilty are protected; because to do so is necessary to protect the innocent. . . .
 

ZZ CREAM

EOG Master
Re: How a former President responded to torture

I am for the rule of law. I am also for defending individual rights as spelled out in the US Constitution. I am against scare tactics which inevitably will get us in another needless war like the one we are involved in Iraq. Why didn't we invade the country that attacked us, Saudi Arabia? Why are we in iraq? No matter what, torture should never be acceptable or espoused by the government.
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

"If giving up some of your rights would make for a better society, then what follows is that giving up all of your rights would make for a perfect society"

The same people that advocate torture would have us believe the above statement, no sir, no torture, not now, not ever.
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

ANYONE THAT THINKS WE DID NOT TORTURE BEFORE NOW IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER MORON.....WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE IT.....

IT WAS JUST NOT PUBLICIZED LIKE IT IS NOW DUE TO THE LACK OF MEDIA THEN AND AMERICANS ACTUALLY WANTED US TO WIN WARS NOT WORRY ABOUT OUR ENEMIES RIGHTS.


STICK THAT FACT IN YOUR FREAKING TREE HUGGING PIPES AND SMOKE IT
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

ANYONE THAT THINKS WE DID NOT TORTURE BEFORE NOW IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER MORON.....WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE IT.....

IT WAS JUST NOT PUBLICIZED LIKE IT IS NOW DUE TO THE LACK OF MEDIA THEN AND AMERICANS ACTUALLY WANTED US TO WIN WARS NOT WORRY ABOUT OUR ENEMIES RIGHTS.


STICK THAT FACT IN YOUR FREAKING TREE HUGGING PIPES AND SMOKE IT

Possibly, but if it was done before, I can assure you that the President of the United States at that time didn't publicly proclaim that torture was acceptable; rather, as shown in the article at top that you didn't bother to read, torturers were prosecuted under the law. . . .
 

ZZ CREAM

EOG Master
Re: How a former President responded to torture

Possibly, but if it was done before, I can assure you that the President of the United States at that time didn't publicly proclaim that torture was acceptable; rather, as shown in the article at top that you didn't bother to read, torturers were prosecuted under the law. . . .
Exactly. Everyone knows that things are done in war that noone wants to know about......that is a given. But when the president of the United States or any other country sanctions this unseemly and illegal behavior, we are no better, probably worse, than animals in the jungle.
 

mr merlin

EOG Master
Re: How a former President responded to torture

I can't believe anyone would argue 'for' torture.
How about torture not to gain information, but for revenge and payback, along with the sheer joy of making an enemy scream in agony?
 

ZZ CREAM

EOG Master
Re: How a former President responded to torture

How about torture not to gain information, but for revenge and payback, along with the sheer joy of making an enemy scream in agony?
That would be about what I would expect from you guys and President Bush.
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

How about torture not to gain information, but for revenge and payback, along with the sheer joy of making an enemy scream in agony?

Penalty: attempting to draw the opposition offside. . . . .
 

ynot

EOG Dedicated
Re: How a former President responded to torture

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not because of any threat from without, but from the insidious forces that work from inside it."

General Douglas MacArthur
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

ANYONE THAT THINKS WE DID NOT TORTURE BEFORE NOW IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER MORON.....WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE IT.....

IT WAS JUST NOT PUBLICIZED LIKE IT IS NOW DUE TO THE LACK OF MEDIA THEN AND AMERICANS ACTUALLY WANTED US TO WIN WARS NOT WORRY ABOUT OUR ENEMIES RIGHTS.


STICK THAT FACT IN YOUR FREAKING TREE HUGGING PIPES AND SMOKE IT


Maybe if there was an ACTUAL declaration of war, I'd feel different. But there isn't and there isn't going to be.
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

Amendment VIII


Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.




Now what people need to understand is that the above amendment is a limitation placed upon the GOVERNMENT. It does not just apply to US Citizens, it means that the US Government simply CAN'T inflict cruel and unusual punishment on ANYONE!!!
 

mr merlin

EOG Master
Re: How a former President responded to torture

You really need to start thinking outside of the box dawg.
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

ANYONE THAT THINKS WE DID NOT TORTURE BEFORE NOW IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER MORON.....WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE IT.....

IT WAS JUST NOT PUBLICIZED LIKE IT IS NOW DUE TO THE LACK OF MEDIA THEN AND AMERICANS ACTUALLY WANTED US TO WIN WARS NOT WORRY ABOUT OUR ENEMIES RIGHTS.


STICK THAT FACT IN YOUR FREAKING TREE HUGGING PIPES AND SMOKE IT

exactly...the media NEVER fusses over the fact that our soldiers are being tortured but they will raise hell if we make a few guys pose naked in a cheerleader pyramid or put a dog collar on

who gives a fuck about their feelings...you arent going to get important information by giving them ice cream

khalid sheikh mohammed gave us information that saved thousands of American lives...he confessed to having a "second wave" of attacks planned on American cities and landmarks...plans to blow up bridges...plans to destroy the Sears Tower...etc...

without the use of certain interrogation techniques we never would have gotten this info
 

ZZ CREAM

EOG Master
Re: How a former President responded to torture

exactly...the media NEVER fusses over the fact that our soldiers are being tortured but they will raise hell if we make a few guys pose naked in a cheerleader pyramid or put a dog collar on

who gives a fuck about their feelings...you arent going to get important information by giving them ice cream

khalid sheikh mohammed gave us information that saved thousands of American lives...he confessed to having a "second wave" of attacks planned on American cities and landmarks...plans to blow up bridges...plans to destroy the Sears Tower...etc...

without the use of certain interrogation techniques we never would have gotten this info
Original NASCAR drivers were terrorists 60 years ago(according to the US Government)...........can we torture them too? How about their fans?
 
Re: How a former President responded to torture

Original NASCAR drivers were terrorists 60 years ago(according to the US Government)...........can we torture them too? How about their fans?

wow...completely irrelevant to what i was referring to...although a liberal usually has to change the subject when confronted with the facts
 

mr merlin

EOG Master
Re: How a former President responded to torture

I,m 100% against torturing Nascar drivers, or their fans, Only a truly sick mind would advocate such a thing! Now, terrorists....why not.
 

ZZ CREAM

EOG Master
Re: How a former President responded to torture

I,m 100% against torturing Nascar drivers, or their fans, Only a truly sick mind would advocate such a thing! Now, terrorists....why not.
Yes, but if Cheney decides you all rooted for the wrong car, you will thusly be designated as terrorist-supporters, at the very least.:dancefool :dancefool :dancefool :dancefool
 
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