Santo screwed again

S

Stephen

EOG Addicted
Ron Santo didn't make the Hall of Fame. It's a terrible misjustice.

Santo is one of the 12 best third basemen of all-time. I know Bill James feels that way, too. He wrote in one of his books that Santo is the No. 1 guy who is most deserving of being in the Hall among long-time retired players.

I grew up watching Santo. He wasn't as good as Mike Schmidt, but he was close. Great fielder, good hitter with excellent power. Good leader, too.

Hopefully Santo makes it one day.
 
Hitdogg42

Hitdogg42

EOG Dedicated
Re: Santo screwed again

No Rice = DEF no Santo......Santo was always the 3rd best 3rd baseman in the league when he played.......Matthews and Boyer were better....
 
S

Stephen

EOG Addicted
Re: Santo screwed again

There has to be a reason why Santo isn't in. Popularity shouldn't count.

I would take Eddie Mathews over Santo but no way on Boyer over Santo. Not Ken or Clete.
 
rainbow

rainbow

EOG Master
Re: Santo screwed again

Stephen said:
There has to be a reason why Santo isn't in. Popularity shouldn't count.

I would take Eddie Mathews over Santo but no way on Boyer over Santo. Not Ken or Clete.
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Ken Boyer was a great 3rd baseman for the Cardinals, and he could hit. Clete Boyer was one of the best fielding 3rd basemans of all time, he wasn?t the best but he RANKS up there, Craig Nettles, Brooks Robinson were both better fielders, but if you count them out he is right there with the best of them.
 
rainbow

rainbow

EOG Master
Re: Santo screwed again

Back to the topic, without a doubt in my mind, Ron Santo should be in the Hall of Fame.....................
 
munson15

munson15

I want winners...
Re: Santo screwed again

Stephen said:
Ron Santo didn't make the Hall of Fame. It's a terrible misjustice.

Santo is one of the 12 best third basemen of all-time. I know Bill James feels that way, too. He wrote in one of his books that Santo is the No. 1 guy who is most deserving of being in the Hall among long-time retired players.

I grew up watching Santo. He wasn't as good as Mike Schmidt, but he was close. Great fielder, good hitter with excellent power. Good leader, too.

Hopefully Santo makes it one day.
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I agree completely, hopefully it'll happen someday when he's still around to enjoy it.
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

EOG Master
Re: Santo screwed again

Jagermeister said:
Yes. The HOFers are the ones who vote on the Veterans Committee, not the sportswriters. Look up Santo's stats vs Brooks Robinson, and most are better. The WS titles really help Brooks.
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Santo only playing full seasons til age 33 really hurts him. I can see the argument for or against. He had nowhere near the impact on baseball that Brooks Robinson did.



Brooks is easily a HOFer , the best fielder in baseball history, arguably.

16 Gold Gloves
18 all star games
1964 MVP
1970 WS MVP

1966 MVP runner up
1965 3rd in league MVP
1971 4th in league MVP
 
munson15

munson15

I want winners...
Re: Santo screwed again

Jman, no arguing B. Robby's HOF credentials, but I'd love to see their offensive stats posted side by side. The list above are all awards that are voted on.
 
Jimmy Hoffa

Jimmy Hoffa

1
Re: Santo screwed again

Santo has always been over rated in my opinion.

Relying on sympathy votes hasn't helped his cause either, get over it Ron.
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

EOG Master
Re: Santo screwed again

munson15 said:
Jman, no arguing B. Robby's HOF credentials, but I'd love to see their offensive stats posted side by side. The list above are all awards that are voted on.
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stats side by side do not tell the whole story when it comes to the HOF, Brooks had nearly 3000 hits as well, Santo 2,254...Santo played 3-4 years too short, the HOF rarely puts players in who fade out in their early 30s.

playing quality baseball til just age 33 is a huge factor, see Jim Rice.
 
munson15

munson15

I want winners...
Re: Santo screwed again

I don't know guys, if you look closely at Santo's career, he has a lot of interesting qualifications. In an era defined by pitching, his stats merit a better look, IMO. For 7 consecutive years, he was in the NL top 10 in HR's and for 8 straight years, he ranked in the top 10 in NL RBI. Santo had an excellent on base %, and led the NL in walks 4 times. 5 straight Gold Gloves signify fielding excellence, as well.
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

EOG Master
Re: Santo screwed again

munson15 said:
I don't know guys, if you look closely at Santo's career, he has a lot of interesting qualifications. In an era defined by pitching, his stats merit a better look, IMO. For 7 consecutive years, he was in the NL top 10 in HR's and for 8 straight years, he ranked in the top 10 in NL RBI. Santo had an excellent on base %, and led the NL in walks 4 times.
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very good point Munson.

he simply lacks the longevity IMO. 3 more yrs like that and he was in .

this is the same factor that keeps Mattingly out.
 
munson15

munson15

I want winners...
Re: Santo screwed again

I ran out of editing time, but would like to add that he was extremely durable, played at least 160 games 8 straight years. I don't put tremendous stock in HOF candidates piling up numbers late in their career to achieve lifetime milestones. 15 years as a fulltime player is certainly enough longevity. I agree on your point re: Mattingly, but am not sure it's enough to keep a guy out when I consider some of the players who are in.
 
TomBrady#1

TomBrady#1

EOG Dedicated
Re: Santo screwed again

Rice is a perfect player to see where longevity hurts him. HE was the dominant power hitter during his time frame. He put up sick numbers and did some great things. He just didn't do it for long enough. I am not sure that is fair at all...longevity might me overrated but that is a question for another day. They rate longevity high, like it or not.
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

EOG Master
Re: Santo screwed again

TomBrady#1 said:
Rice is a perfect player to see where longevity hurts him. HE was the dominant power hitter during his time frame. He put up sick numbers and did some great things. He just didn't do it for long enough. I am not sure that is fair at all...longevity might me overrated but that is a question for another day. They rate longevity high, like it or not.
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This is exactly how I see it...whether it's fair is the question.
 
munson15

munson15

I want winners...
Re: Santo screwed again

TomBrady#1 said:
Rice is a perfect player to see where longevity hurts him. HE was the dominant power hitter during his time frame. He put up sick numbers and did some great things. He just didn't do it for long enough. I am not sure that is fair at all...longevity might me overrated but that is a question for another day. They rate longevity high, like it or not.
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Tom, the only official qualification for longevity on the HOF ballot is a player must have put in 10 years, the quality of his career should be weighed more heavily than the quantity.
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

EOG Master
Re: Santo screwed again

munson15 said:
Tom, the only official qualification for longevity on the HOF ballot is a player must have put in 10 years, the quality of his career should be weighed more heavily than the quantity.
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That may be true but that isn't usually the case.

Kirby Puckett one of the few in recent memory who's gotten in with 2/3s of a career.

I can't think of anyone liek Santo from his time, who's in.

Comparing Santo to Brooks Robinson is not even worth discussing.2938u4ji23
 
munson15

munson15

I want winners...
Re: Santo screwed again

Journeyman said:
That may be true but that isn't usually the case.

Kirby Puckett one of the few in recent memory who's gotten in with 2/3s of a career.

I can't think of anyone liek Santo from his time, who's in.

Comparing Santo to Brooks Robinson is not even worth discussing.2938u4ji23
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We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, Jman. I know you're fiercely loyal to the old Baltimore Colts and Orioles, and they were great, but I looked at Santo and Robinson side by side, and I have to admit, I was surprised at the discrepancy in offensive production. I know that's not the entire equation, Brooks did great things in playoff baseball and was an amazing gloveman, his ability in the clutch is an intangible he definitely deserves credit for, too. I respect your opinion, I guess is what I'm saying.
 
THE SHRINK

THE SHRINK

1
Re: Santo screwed again

Stephen said:
Ron Santo didn't make the Hall of Fame. It's a terrible misjustice.

Santo is one of the 12 best third basemen of all-time. I know Bill James feels that way, too. He wrote in one of his books that Santo is the No. 1 guy who is most deserving of being in the Hall among long-time retired players.

I grew up watching Santo. He wasn't as good as Mike Schmidt, but he was close. Great fielder, good hitter with excellent power. Good leader, too.

Hopefully Santo makes it one day.
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Suddenly, I don't feel so OLD...:LMAO:LMAO:LMAO
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

EOG Master
Re: Santo screwed again

munson15 said:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, Jman. I know you're fiercely loyal to the old Baltimore Colts and Orioles, and they were great, but I looked at Santo and Robinson side by side, and I have to admit, I was surprised at the discrepancy in offensive production. I know that's not the entire equation, Brooks did great things in playoff baseball and was an amazing gloveman, his ability in the clutch is an intangible he definitely deserves credit for, too. I respect your opinion, I guess is what I'm saying.
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what about the MVP voting??? Brooks was top 4 or higher, 4 times.

obviously Brooks had a much bigger impact in his league and also playing for the best team in baseball from mid 60's on til he retired, obviously being a huge part of the Orioles key to success, pitching and defense.

I disagree with you, but I hear you.

The HOF criteria, is what it is, and Santo doesn't measure up to what they normally accept.
 
munson15

munson15

I want winners...
Re: Santo screwed again

Journeyman said:
what about the MVP voting??? Brooks was top 4 or higher, 4 times.

obviously Brooks had a much bigger impact in his league and also playing for the best team in baseball from mid 60's on til he retired, obviously being a huge part of the Orioles key to success, pitching and defense.

I disagree with you, but I hear you.

The HOF criteria, is what it is, and Santo doesn't measure up to what they normally accept.
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Earl Weaver always said his keys to winning were 'pitching, defense and 3-run homers.' Santo could have hit a few for them, but would have to change positions.
 
F

felonee

EOG Veteran
Re: Santo screwed again

Can he make it in after he dies, because he isn't going to make it while he is alive.
 
Jagermeister

Jagermeister

2
Re: Santo screwed again

Journeyman said:
very good point Munson.

he simply lacks the longevity IMO. 3 more yrs like that and he was in .

this is the same factor that keeps Mattingly out.
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You cant be serious about Santo's longevity?

Tale of the Tape

Lifetime:

Brooks - 22 seasons 268 HR's 1357 RBI's .267 BA .322 OBA .401 SP
Santo - 15 seasons 342 HR's 1331 RBI's .277 BA .361 OBA .461 SP

Average season:

Brooks - .267 BA 15 HR's 76 RBI's .322 OBA .401 SP
Santo - .277 BA 25 HR's 96 RBI's .362 OBA . 464 SP

Other stats:

Brooks - 1 MVP, 6 other seasons top 10 MVP voting, 16 Gold Gloves.12-time AS, two-time WS champ, holds the record for career assists.
Santo - 4-time top 10 MVP voting, 5 Gold Gloves, 9-time AS. He held the NL record for career assists until Schmidt broke it.

Not saying Santo is better, but in the same era, Santo's stats hold up pretty well.
 
The Prophet

The Prophet

EOG Dedicated
Re: Santo screwed again

MLB?s HOF as well as its inductee process is nothing more than a political process which attempts to immortalize athletes? on individual?s historical performances and/or opinions based upon the individual?s perception of being a good or bad person instead of the player?s career performance. As such, what the HOF attempts to represent is tainted with injustices towards the players? themselves i.e. there are players? that should be recognized that aren?t and those that are that shouldn?t undermining the intended purposes of the HOF?the performances of players that were significantly above that of others during their time of play. Hence, there is little reason for us to recognize the HOF as nothing more than what it is?a self-serving unjust political process tainted at serving its own agendas.

With that said, should Ron Santo be inducted into the HOF?

Based upon Santo?s career performance numbers relative to those who played during his time as well as observing his play during his career my opinion would be NO. Santo?s playing performance was a slightly better, not significantly above the average player of his time and not one worthy of being immortalizing by HOF recognition.

Pete Rose on the other hand?



.
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

EOG Master
Re: Santo screwed again

Jagermeister said:
You cant be serious about Santo's longevity?

Tale of the Tape

Lifetime:

Brooks - 22 seasons 268 HR's 1357 RBI's .267 BA .322 OBA .401 SP
Santo - 15 seasons 342 HR's 1331 RBI's .277 BA .361 OBA .461 SP

Average season:

Brooks - .267 BA 15 HR's 76 RBI's .322 OBA .401 SP
Santo - .277 BA 25 HR's 96 RBI's .362 OBA . 464 SP

Other stats:

Brooks - 1 MVP, 6 other seasons top 10 MVP voting, 16 Gold Gloves.12-time AS, two-time WS champ, holds the record for career assists.
Santo - 4-time top 10 MVP voting, 5 Gold Gloves, 9-time AS. He held the NL record for career assists until Schmidt broke it.

Not saying Santo is better, but in the same era, Santo's stats hold up pretty well.
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Oh yes I can be serious....he played a full season only til age 33.

putting their avg season in is ridiculous and skewing the MVP voting Brooks was TOP 5 4 times! :rolleyes:

retiring at age 34, only playing a full season up til age 33 is the main reason why he's not going to get in.
 
TomBrady#1

TomBrady#1

EOG Dedicated
Re: Santo screwed again

Jagermeister said:
You cant be serious about Santo's longevity?

Tale of the Tape

Lifetime:

Brooks - 22 seasons 268 HR's 1357 RBI's .267 BA .322 OBA .401 SP
Santo - 15 seasons 342 HR's 1331 RBI's .277 BA .361 OBA .461 SP

Average season:

Brooks - .267 BA 15 HR's 76 RBI's .322 OBA .401 SP
Santo - .277 BA 25 HR's 96 RBI's .362 OBA . 464 SP

Other stats:

Brooks - 1 MVP, 6 other seasons top 10 MVP voting, 16 Gold Gloves.12-time AS, two-time WS champ, holds the record for career assists.
Santo - 4-time top 10 MVP voting, 5 Gold Gloves, 9-time AS. He held the NL record for career assists until Schmidt broke it.

Not saying Santo is better, but in the same era, Santo's stats hold up pretty well.
Click to expand...


Impressive numbers for Santo for sure.
 
5

5 star bomb

EOG Master
Re: Santo screwed again

Santo has better #'s in 7 less seasons... I know he wasnt as good as Brooks on the defensive end obviously... but he wasnt bad either. He got 5 Gold Gloves himself. Its bs hes not in the HOF
 
B

Bugman

EOG Dedicated
Re: Santo screwed again

.277 hitter, 22 homers & 80 something RBI's a year = Solid MLB Player that isn't a HOF'er.

Just my opinion.
 
5

5 star bomb

EOG Master
Re: Santo screwed again

where are u getting those #'s from idiot?

He averaged 25 hrs and 96 rbi in the DEAD BALL era...
 
B

Bugman

EOG Dedicated
Re: Santo screwed again

5 star bomb said:
where are u getting those #'s from idiot?

He averaged 25 hrs and 96 rbi in the DEAD BALL era...
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The dead-ball era is a baseball term used to describe the period between 1900 (though some date it to the beginning of baseball) and the emergence of Babe Ruth as a power hitter in 1919. In 1919, Ruth hit a then-league record 29 home runs, a spectacular feat at that time.

Wow....Santos played from 1900-1919 ? He doesn't look bad for a guy over 100 years old ! :doh1 You < pretty much everyone else alive presently


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead-ball_era
 
5

5 star bomb

EOG Master
Re: Santo screwed again

i mean compared to players now days moron!! 30 hrs now days is not much at all, however when Santo played it was a great accomplishment
 
Flamingo kid

Flamingo kid

Everybody's hands go UP!
Re: Santo screwed again

The HOF is like god....everyone has their own personal god they worship. You are not forced to worship anyone else's god just like you don't have to stand for players that you believe are in YOUR HOF and not in some other guy's HOF.

If you believe Santo is a HOFer than he is. He's in your heart, you know what you saw, you know what he means to you as a player and as a human.

If the MLB has ONE voter who doesn't vote for Ferris Maddux than that just shows you that the MLB HOF is tainted.
 
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