Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

[Flamingo kid]

Seems like most times a person goes to the 'chair' they're guilty as sin. Most times though, there aren't famous people coming out of the woodwork and questioning this verdict.

I'm not sure Troy Davis' was executed because he was black, or because the guy who died was a cop, but i'll tell you one thing...there's zero chance that Troy Davis would have been executed if he was white and the guy killed wasnt a cop (with everything else being equal).

Something is rotten in Denmark.

 

[Squarepants]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

Hard to say anything about a case based upon what you see in the media. In the movie Dead Man Walking, the flashback scenarios run in the earlier parts of the movie suggest that Elmo Patrick Sonnier was not guilty of murder. It's not until the end of the movie that they ran a flashback sequence that was more consistent with the trial evidence. Elmo and his brother shot the two teenagers in the back of the head as they were laying face down on the ground on a moonless night. The brother was able to get his death sentence commuted by the Supreme Court of Louisiana by having Elmo confess to being the shooter. They tried the same approach when Elmo's head figuratively was in the noose, but it didn't work that time. The evidence was that it was so dark that one had to hold the flashlight on the back of the teenagers' heads and the other the rifle. Either way, that's aiding and abetting murder, making each a principal under the law. If I had seen the movie without having read the trial transcript, I would have been taken in. But I knew better throughout. I don't know anything about the facts of this particular case, but I always take media reports and reports of persons diametrically opposed to the penalty regardless of the crime with a grain of salt. White cop killers get executed, too.

 

[texansfan]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

Guilty.

 

[winkyduck]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

If so - wasn't the first.........won't be the last

Doesn't make it right - just stating fact

 

[cheapseats]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

If the system does not kill cop killers, then the system feels it has no control, and we all know to well what the system wants, total control.

 

[Timely Hero]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

Guilty.

Even you have to admit there's at least some doubt. Witnesses recanting their statements because they were "threatened" by the police - that doesn't seem too far fetched when you consider a cop was killed and they wanted someone to be held responsible.

I have no clue if he's innocent or guilty, but what I do know is that if there's even a .1% chance that he's not guilty, he shouldn't be executed. The death penalty should be for the worst of the worst criminals who are undoubtedly guilty. We should also kill these people with a gun shot to the head - save the tax-payers dollars.

 

[JHU Dad]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

Nobody knows for sure. I doubt that Davis was "innocent", but the state's methods in upholding their burden was troubling.

 

[Jeff Jones]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

The alleged crime happened in 1991.

I understand that social mores change over 20 years. And that two decades of time sort of diffuse the gravity of the crime. That's the problem with the legal system. Why wasn't the guy euthanized in 1992?

So, twenty years later, we wring our hands over the black man/cop killer angle. The court gave the defense twenty years to save this guy, and they couldn't.

 

[Ace]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

The alleged crime happened in 1991.

I understand that social mores change over 20 years. And that two decades of time sort of diffuse the gravity of the crime. That's the problem with the legal system. Why wasn't the guy euthanized in 1992?
exactlySo, twenty years later, we wring our hands over the black man/cop killer angle. The court gave the defense twenty years to save this guy, and they couldn't.

exactly!

 

[steak tartar]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

agree with JJ

 

[mrbowling300]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

Wasn't there any DNA evidence?

 

[Doughy]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

Wasn't there any DNA evidence?

Can anyone answer this question? I tend to side with the DNA results, if any. I understand this crime happened in 1989, but any evidence would be able to be tested even today for DNA.

At least that's what I learned on "American Justice", "Cold Case Files", and the Investigative Discovery channel.

 

[pvcpipe]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

Even you have to admit there's at least some doubt. Witnesses recanting their statements because they were "threatened" by the police - that doesn't seem too far fetched when you consider a cop was killed and they wanted someone to be held responsible.

I have no clue if he's innocent or guilty, but what I do know is that if there's even a .1% chance that he's not guilty, he shouldn't be executed. The death penalty should be for the worst of the worst criminals who are undoubtedly guilty. We should also kill these people with a gun shot to the head - save the tax-payers dollars.

No matter how you do it, death penalty costs more to taxpayers than life w/o.


I agree with the headshot, though. I'd much rather go out that way than strapped to a gurney. And the only reason we use LI is to feel better about ourselves.

 

[Squarepants]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

Under the "External Links" section at the bottom of this wiki page, there is a link to a two-part .pdf file with the -- quite lengthy -- opinion by the Southern District of Georgia denying Davis' final federal habeas petition (in a long series of state and federal petitions) -- premised upon alleged actual innocence -- on August 24, 2010. If you are interested in the specifics of the case, it's not a bad place to start, as the district court's opinion reviews the evidence extensively and addresses the recantation evidence presented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Davis_case

 

[Squarepants]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

Re: DNA evidence, see note 97 in the district court's opinion. (Haven't reviewed the whole thing as I have other fish to fry today, but ran a term search.)

 

[Doughy]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

Under the "External Links" section at the bottom of this wiki page, there is a link to a two-part .pdf file with the -- quite lengthy -- opinion by the Southern District of Georgia denying Davis' final federal habeas petition (in a long series of state and federal petitions) -- premised upon alleged actual innocence -- on August 24, 2010. If you are interested in the specifics of the case, it's not a bad place to start, as the district court's opinion reviews the evidence extensively and addresses the recantation evidence presented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Davis_case

I did a quick Ctrl+F search for "DNA" and only saw where the Wikipedia article talks about "there was no DNA evidence to categorically clear Davis". Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't DNA evidence supposed to be used to prove guilt, not innocence. I see how it can cut both ways, but without DNA linking Davis to the crime I have a hard time believing the man should be executed.

And that is exactly what I'll say when I run for Circuit Court judge one day. :btj:

 

[JHU Dad]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

It is unusual to get a second chance to prove your innocence, as opposed to trial irregularity. Davis lost on both occasions. Rightly or wrongly, he had his days in court. Recanted testimony sounds great 20 years later, but it's usually not June and Ward Cleaver doing the recanting. Quite often, these people have motives of their own. I'd like to think that the Courts had access to better information than we did and acted properly.

 

[Enfuego]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

The one thing you can't say about this case is the guy didn't get his day in court. The case was heard in multiple venues and on multiple occassions. Dudes on the EOG don't have access to the evidence those courts did. They all denied clemancy. That should tell you all you need to know.

 

[Squarepants]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

Doughboy, I'm referring to the district court's opinion linked at the bottom of the wikipedia page. I didn't look at the wiki page for any reason other than that I know that they often will link to relevant documents, in this case the district court opinion.

My points here are restricted to (a) don't necessarily believe everything you hear in the media about a case; and (b) those looking for information about the case might find the district court's opinion extensively examining the actual innocence issue an informative resource.

Other than that, I'll let you guys debate the relative merits or demerits of this particular case, including how the presence or absence of DNA evidence is significant in this case or generally.

Been doing this for over 25 years, so unraveling the facts of a case that I'm not personally involved with just isn't something that I typically am going to get wrapped up in. Have done it for real, as in, e.g., the Sonnier case above. And, as I say, I have other fish to fry today. Just wanted to facilitate your discussion with the above.

 

[Enfuego]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

written by The Guardian

Here are 10 reasons why the board – which decided on Tuesday to allow the execution to go ahead – has failed to deliver on its promise and why a man who is very possibly innocent will be killed in the name of American justice.

1. Of the nine witnesses who appeared at Davis's 1991 trial who said they had seen Davis beating up a homeless man in a dispute over a bottle of beer and then shooting to death a police officer, Mark MacPhail, who was acting as a good samaritan, seven have since recanted their evidence.

2. One of those who recanted, Antoine Williams, subsequently revealed they had no idea who shot the officer and that they were illiterate – meaning they could not read the police statements that they had signed at the time of the murder in 1989. Others said they had falsely testified that they had overheard Davis confess to the murder.

3. Many of those who retracted their evidence said that they had been cajoled by police into testifying against Davis. Some said they had been threatened with being put on trial themselves if they did not co-operate.

4. Of the two of the nine key witnesses who have not changed their story publicly, one has kept silent for the past 20 years and refuses to talk, and the other is Sylvester Coles. Coles was the man who first came forward to police and implicated Davis as the killer. But over the past 20 years evidence has grown that Coles himself may be the gunman and that he was fingering Davis to save his own skin.

5. In total, nine people have come forward with evidence that implicates Coles. Most recently, on Monday the George Board of Pardons and Paroles heard from Quiana Glover who told the panel that in June 2009 she had heard Coles, who had been drinking heavily, confess to the murder of MacPhail.

6. Apart from the witness evidence, most of which has since been cast into doubt, there was no forensic evidence gathered that links Davis to the killing.

7. In particular, there is no DNA evidence of any sort. The human rights group the Constitution Project points out that three-quarters of those prisoners who have been exonerated and declared innocent in the US were convicted at least in part on the basis of faulty eyewitness testimony.

8. No gun was ever found connected to the murder. Coles later admitted that he owned the same type of .38-calibre gun that had delivered the fatal bullets, but that he had given it away to another man earlier on the night of the shooting.

9. Higher courts in the US have repeatedly refused to grant Davis a retrial on the grounds that he had failed to "prove his innocence". His supporters counter that where the ultimate penalty is at stake, it should be for the courts to be beyond any reasonable doubt of his guilt.

10. Even if you set aside the issue of Davis's innocence or guilt, the manner of his execution tonight is cruel and unnatural. If the execution goes ahead as expected, it would be the fourth scheduled execution date for this prisoner. In 2008 he was given a stay just 90 minutes before he was set to die. Experts in death row say such multiple experiences with imminent death is tantamount to torture.

Dsethi, why don't you post all the evidence presented that suggests he's flat-out guilty? Is it because you want him to be innocent? I just think it's kind if irresponsible to sit on one side of the counter without presenting evidence that might suggest he's actually guilty.

Look, all these courts have the information you just posted and multiple courts denied clemency. Why, 22 years later, do you think that is?

 

[Chuck Sims]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

A white man was put to death last night. He insisted he did not do the actual killing. But because the man executed was white and the victim black, no outcry, or outrage by the media.

And of course the black community was all for the execution of the white guy. But the execution of the poor black guy, a thug , and career criminal, its got to be racist, and he is innocent. Even though overwhelming evidence says otherwise.

This thugs execution was long overdue.

 

[pokerjoe]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

I'm not sure Troy Davis' was executed because he was black, or because the guy who died was a cop, but i'll tell you one thing...there's zero chance that Troy Davis would have been executed if he was white and the guy killed wasnt a cop (with everything else being equal).

Something is rotten in Denmark.

I'm against the death penalty, especially in this case, but I'm also against nonsensical arguments such as you make here. I mean, you make a statement like that and the SAME DAY it gets proven exactly wrong.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/21/lawrence-russell-brewer-executed_n_974926.html?ir=Crime

You'll say "everything wasn't equal", but that's a pointless qualification because no two murder cases are ever equal. You said a white man wouldn't be executed for killing a black man, and you are extremely, grossly, conspicuously LOL wrong.

 

[Enfuego]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

i don't want him to be innocent, i think he's innocent, and i don't have the time or motivation to read through every piece of literature the court was privy to to make a determination, so yes, my opinion is obviously influenced by what is easily accessible, as are most of our opinions on pretty much every piece of news we consume.

Good question on why he wasn't granted clemency. I'm not sure. Maybe you can find some facts that UNQUESTIONABLY find him guilty of this murder, minus 2 witness testimonies that weren't recanted, including one by a suspect himself who owned a gun that matched ballistics found in this investigation.

you tell me if all of these question marks warrant death by execution. I sure don't see it. And i'm not one to subscribe to popular opinion (particularly sports), but some of the most respected and popular figures in the world seem to agree, at the LEAST that this guy didn't deserve to die. We're not even talkinga bout life in prison, we're talking about someone being put to death.

Dsethi, I don't know enough about the case to say he's guilty or not. Maybe he was not guilty but I have to believe that hundreds of people that have reviewed the case over the course of 22 years did not put an innocent man to death. That's just me though. Sometimes our opinions on cases like this are also influenced on our stance on the death penalty as well. I'd be interested to know yours.

Also, I don't put any stock into respected or popular opinions like ones that come from Al Sharpton. The only opinions I care about are the educated and experienced lawyers and judges that spend their entire lives studying the law and evidence in cases and making educated decisions based on the evidence and the merits of the case.

Again, these folks involved in the up-close details of this case found him guilty. I have to think they did a thorough job. I'm just not in a position to question their findings.

 

[Enfuego]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

as I said earlier, I'd love to read more about this case, i wasn't able to find much but would feel the same way if the evidence presented in his hearings was similarly questionable as it was in Troy Davis' case. this issue is about black and white to some people, but not all of us who just find this a case of injustice, not black or white injustice.

You and I don't know enough about the evidence or case to even form an opinion. There's obviously a lot more to the case then we've seen. Agree?

 

[WVU]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

If this guy got life in prison instead of the death penalty then no one would even know about it

 

[Enfuego]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

I'd have to think if there was more definitive evidence than what has been published, it'd have been released or more publicized. Maybe a lawyer can chime in, but recanting testimony is a fairly big deal, right? I don't think it's fair that they hold the validity of original testimony from questionable witnesses as reason to execute, but then use questionable nature of witnesses as invalidity for the recanting. doesn't add up to me.

i could care less about sharpton, i was referring more to Archbishop Tutu and the Pope. But regardless it doesn't make much of a difference, but I do think these guys pick their spots on what they back.

I actually don't have a strong stance one way or another on the death sentence.

Dsethi, there's obviously more to the evidence regarding recanting testimony don't you think? Wouldn't you agree the smart guys making all the decisions have to know about this? They didn't just ignore it did they?

Tutu and the Pope? Are you sure they reviewed all the pertient evidence in this case and formed a educated decision on the matter?

 

[Timely Hero]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

Enfuego, youre basically arguing that no one is ever wrongfully accused by the justice system, and that cops have never done questionable things when one of their own is killed. There isnt "more" secret evidence saying it was him. He was convicted on eye-witness testimony. It was well documented that there was no physical evidence. Those same witnesses, outside of the guy who might have done it himself and a guy who has remained silent, have recanted their statements. As i said, i have no clue if he did it or not but there is definite doubt there so im not sure how you can put him to death. You have a lot of faith in a court system that is as flawed as the humans who run it.

 

[ShavenCoinpurse]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

All of you do realize this was the SECOND murder this guy committed, right? The cop killing witnesses are in question but he did murder someone else also. So, if you are against the death penalty that is one thing but an "innocent man" was definitely not put to death.

 

[pantherman]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

All of you do realize this was the SECOND murder this guy committed, right? The cop killing witnesses are in question but he did murder someone else also. So, if you are against the death penalty that is one thing but an "innocent man" was definitely not put to death.

They linked the gun to a second shooting. Once they charged him with one murder, it was natural they'd charge him to the other crime. There was probably a good chance he committed neither or both crimes.

 

[pantherman]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

as I said earlier, I'd love to read more about this case, i wasn't able to find much but would feel the same way if the evidence presented in his hearings was similarly questionable as it was in Troy Davis' case. this issue is about black and white to some people, but not all of us who just find this a case of injustice, not black or white injustice.

The white man in Texas was convicted along with two of his buddies (at least one of whom was also an ex-con) for one of the worst hate crimes the country had seen at that point. They dragged their victim from the back of a pickup truck and it was an absolutely gruesome crime. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Byrd,_Jr.

My hunch is that Troy Davis was no angel, but the guy in Texas was as open and shut a case as there is. There's no comparison between the two.

 

[JHU Dad]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

If there was a way to kill the Texas convict twice, he earned it. That he got to live 12-13 years after that killing was the biggest injustice of that case.

 

[Enfuego]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

Enfuego, youre basically arguing that no one is ever wrongfully accused by the justice system, and that cops have never done questionable things when one of their own is killed. There isnt "more" secret evidence saying it was him. He was convicted on eye-witness testimony. It was well documented that there was no physical evidence. Those same witnesses, outside of the guy who might have done it himself and a guy who has remained silent, have recanted their statements. As i said, i have no clue if he did it or not but there is definite doubt there so im not sure how you can put him to death. You have a lot of faith in a court system that is as flawed as the humans who run it.

That's not what I'm saying at all. Sure, guys are wrongfully accused...no doubt about it. What I'm saying is you and I and Dsethi and WVU have read the details about this case over the last few days. People intimately involved in this case have studied it for 22 years. I think they know a little bit more about it then all of us clowns.

 

[Mad Thunder]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

with most of the witnesses having recanted, there's something just not feeling right with me about this case... :+clueless

 

[JHU Dad]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

Now, since the Texas guy ordered like such a pig when requesting his last meal, the state has eliminated special requests for last meals. Where did the civility go?

 

[steak tartar]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

Now, since the Texas guy ordered like such a pig when requesting his last meal, the state has eliminated special requests for last meals. Where did the civility go?

just make a menu......you can order one salad one entre one dessert and two beverages( refills on the sodas and teas)

 

[Squarepants]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

just make a menu......you can order one salad one entre one dessert and two beverages( refills on the sodas and teas)

Might want to put a limit on those drink refills.

-- -- --

Again, folks, there's a 172-page opinion by the federal district court from only a month ago that lays out -- in full -- the trial and recantation evidence.

The link is at the very bottom of this wiki page, under "U.S. District Court."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Davis_case

 

[JHU Dad]

Re: Did the American justice system execute an innocent man in Georgia last night?

I can get that at the Outback, without the lethal injection to go with it.