watch this video

[Shortbus]

okay, since Dirty is the only one who posts in the Politics and government forum, I decided to post this here.

two rules please:

1) DO NOT COMMENT unless you've watched the entire video. If you haven't seen it, I don't want to hear from you...

2)if you watch the video, watch it with an open mind completely
don't try and argue against every single frame of the movie.

911

I have watched this entire video.

I am a Republican.

I have a very hard time NOT believing some of what is presented in this video.

Much of it just makes sense. And when you add in the video/audio interviews and comments made by those during the actual tragedy, it makes it even more disturbing.

I'm not saying I believe the premise of what this "documentary" os proposing, but I am saying that they certainly do make a case for the government to be questioned and held accountable for their answers.

It appears that there are quite a few instances where at worst the public has been misled. Why? Who knows.

I am not a conspiracy nut. But seeing is believing and they make a good case. Even thinking that this could even be remotely possible makes me seriously sick to my stomach.

Who would you question? Where would you start? What would you even do about it?

Let's say they were right, and our government was responsible for 911, and that they were instantly exposed say, tomorrow. What would happen? You can't fire every single government employee from Bush all the way down the the mail man and start over. What would you do?

 

[Lawrence]

Short, I have seen this entire video a few weeks back (a buddy of mine whos a conspiracy nut made me, lol), and I have some problems with it, specifically on the portion of the Pentagon. The guy claims no plane hit the Pentagon, and says that flight 77 landed safely in Cleveland, and its passengers shuttled to an empty NASA building..while he doesnt come out and say it, he wants us to infer that those people were killed...a major problem with that is the 100's of eyewitnesses on the scene that day (either driving to work/school, gardners, bike riders etc..) who say they saw a commercial airplane hit the pentagon...yes this guy does present 1 or 2 people who say they saw something else, but there are an overwhelming amount of witnesses who say they saw a plane, people who are not connected to each other, or the Admin. or anything, just random people interviewed on the scene by AP reporters, ABC etc...that would mean that the government would have to have all these civilians in on it as well..the film-maker presents a sloppy case with a lot of fill in the blank type stuff, but there is really very little concrete stuff there..
the events on 9/11 were in the works for many years, and this country has been asleep at the terrorism wheel for a long time..from Clinton ignoring attacks on our embassy and our Ship, all the way to Bush ignoring briefings and other warnings of an impending strike..

 

[Shortbus]

I feel like the pentagon part is one of the more convincing parts.

If you watch those 8 frames of video, WHERE is the plane? you see something near the ground in one frame, but it's VERY small, and then an explosion. As soon as the explosion is shown, you should see all of the debris at minimum. Plus, the ground isn't burned. Some of the windows right there aren't even broken. I can't say if it was or wasn't a plane, I don't know, but there are some serious questions. For instance, if the heat was hot enough to melt the engines and everything else, how on earth was it not hot enough to incenerate all the bodies? They recovered almost every single one of them...suppossedly.

The main reasons I can't buy the conspiracy is if it was a missle and/or a small fighter plane that hit the pentagon, where are the people on the real plane?

And the plane in Pennsylvania. Looking at the crash area and comparing with other crashes, where's the debri and destruction. BUT if it WASN'T that plane, where are those people as well and what happened to them?

The "science" part of it is hard to dispute in terms of additional explosions. What's the little black "chutes" going out the windows below the crumbling part of the towers as they go down?

Scientifically, none of the fires from any of the crashes were hot enough to melt the steel of the towers or the plane engine (in the Pentagon's case).

That really makes you wonder. Especially after hearing/reading comments from desingers/engineers/demolition experts.

Then the last half of the video, I mean, IF ALL OF THIS stuff could be verified 100% for sure.

I just don't know if I can talk myself out of believing this...

I mean, I'm objective as hell, and I'M TRYING REALLY HARD NOT TO BELIEVE THIS NONSENSE, but....

 

[Lawrence]

Some of the windows right there aren't even broken.

Intact Windows
CLAIM: Many Pentagon windows remained in one piece--even those just above the point of impact from the Boeing 757 passenger plane. Pentagonstrike.co.uk, an online animation widely circulated in the United States and Europe, claims that photographs showing "intact windows" directly above the crash site prove "a missile" or "a craft much smaller than a 757" struck the Pentagon.
FACT: Some windows near the impact area did indeed survive the crash. But that's what the windows were supposed to do--they're blast-resistant.
"A blast-resistant window must be designed to resist a force significantly higher than a hurricane that's hitting instantaneously," says Ken Hays, executive vice president of Masonry Arts, the Bessemer, Ala., company that designed, manufactured and installed the Pentagon windows. Some were knocked out of the walls by the crash and the outer ring's later collapse. "They were not designed to receive wracking seismic force," Hays notes. "They were designed to take in inward pressure from a blast event, which apparently they did: [Before the collapse] the blinds were still stacked neatly behind the window glass."

 

[Lawrence]

The "science" part of it is hard to dispute in terms of additional explosions. What's the little black "chutes" going out the windows below the crumbling part of the towers as they go down?

Puffs Of Dust
CLAIM: As each tower collapsed, clearly visible puffs of dust and debris were ejected from the sides of the buildings. An advertisement in The New York Times for the book Painful Questions: An Analysis Of The September 11th Attack made this claim: "The concrete clouds shooting out of the buildings are not possible from a mere collapse. They do occur from explosions." Numerous conspiracy theorists cite Van Romero, an explosives expert and vice president of the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, who was quoted on 9/11 by the Albuquerque Journal as saying "there were some explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the towers to collapse." The article continues, "Romero said the collapse of the structures resembled those of controlled implosions used to demolish old structures."
FACT: Once each tower began to collapse, the weight of all the floors above the collapsed zone bore down with pulverizing force on the highest intact floor. Unable to absorb the massive energy, that floor would fail, transmitting the forces to the floor below, allowing the collapse to progress downward through the building in a chain reaction. Engineers call the process "pancaking," and it does not require an explosion to begin, according to David Biggs, a structural engineer at Ryan-Biggs Associates and a member of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) team that worked on the FEMA report.
Like all office buildings, the WTC towers contained a huge volume of air. As they pancaked, all that air--along with the concrete and other debris pulverized by the force of the collapse--was ejected with enormous energy. "When you have a significant portion of a floor collapsing, it's going to shoot air and concrete dust out the window," NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder tells PM. Those clouds of dust may create the impression of a controlled demolition, Sunder adds, "but it is the floor pancaking that leads to that perception."
Demolition expert Romero regrets that his comments to the Albuquerque Journal became fodder for conspiracy theorists. "I was misquoted in saying that I thought it was explosives that brought down the building," he tells PM. "I only said that that's what it looked like."
Romero, who agrees with the scientific conclusion that fire triggered the collapses, demanded a retraction from the Journal. It was printed Sept. 22, 2001. "I felt like my scientific reputation was on the line." But emperors-clothes.com saw something else: "The paymaster of Romero's research institute is the Pentagon. Directly or indirectly, pressure was brought to bear, forcing Romero to retract his original statement." Romero responds: "Conspiracy theorists came out saying that the government got to me. That is the farthest thing from the truth. This has been an albatross around my neck for three years."

 

[Lawrence]

Short...I agree that there are things we don't know about the events of 9/11, and I agree that its very American and Patriotic to question the Government, but I see an overwhelming amount of evidence that points to Al-Queda planning/executing these attacks, and our Government sleeping on it..

 

[Shortbus]

the "facts" disputing the "claims" have just as little validity IMO.

It's a matter of opinion I guess. I've searched the net for the specific claims the video has made (most of them) and honestly, the rebuttals have been less than satisfactory.

It does feel unpatriotic, but honestly, I'm never going to listen to anything ANYONE says without questioning it, short of Jesus coming down out of the sky and visiting with me on the way back up.

It would go far in debunking these conspiracy theories if they'd just release the videos of teh pentagon. You simply can't argue with the video...unless of course it was doctored which they could likely do flawlessly.

Hell I sound like a nut, but I just can't help it.

I've probably watched that video 8 times now, maybe a few more in pieces, and I can't stop.

 

[Ironlock]

Simply put, this video is disgraceful and if you can't see that you're a fool.

With an open mind, it doesn't take long to recognize this propoganda as the product of some childish amatuer with a camera and alot of time on his hands.

V for Vendetta is much better.

Iron.

 

[dirty]

Simply put, this video is disgraceful and if you can't see that you're a fool.

With an open mind, it doesn't take long to recognize this propoganda as the product of some childish amatuer with a camera and alot of time on his hands.

V for Vendetta is much better.

Iron.

Esactly Iron......the national Geographic Channel Blew this whole damn Video to Shreds in there Piece on the 9/11 attacks on the Anniversary last year.....It is just like Fahrenhite 911 By Michael Moore....you watch Fahranhype 911 that tells the Truth and you see what a Scuzzball that SOB is...


I have seen that Video 50 times at least and It is total Bunk.....

 

[Shortbus]

I can obviously see that the maker has an agenda.

A three year old can figure that out.

But some of the video in the video is hard to argue with.

Watch the 8 frames of video released from the pentagon crash and what do you see?

Look at the lawn.

You telling me a hollow ass cockpit and plane cabin made two big ass holes but the two engines did nothing at all? BS.

And please don't fucking insult me. It makes you look like a fool for being so fucking arrogant.

 

[Ironlock]

Shortbus-

You say you are a rebublican...

Tell me then.

Bush purposely killed thousands of americans, for no other reason than to increase his power.

No-one involved in the plan to kill thousands of Americans for the sake of increased power, has broken rank.

Muslims, really had nothing to do with this.

Bombs were planted in the WTC towers by Americans.

A missile was shot at the Pentagon, by men in the military who have devoted thier lives to serving the USA.



I could go on and on...but please, ....GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK.

ARE YOU THIS FUCKING STUPID?

Seriously, give me a fucking break. Republican..maybe, a well read, educated conservative, you are not my friend. Read you fucking history.

Iron.

Its amazing that some kid can influence you to believe the shit above.

 

[dirty]

Republican..maybe, a well read, educated conservative,



Not many peeps who zinvest in the Truth :+thumbs-2


Iron we are More alike than you know.....and it will save America...:+signs8-1

 

[Shortbus]

Fuck you iron.

I never said they did it. Just that I question what happened.

You are an ignorant ass.

I'm not letting "some kid" influence me. You obviously didn't watch the entire video, so I'm not going to argue with you because you are too fucking stupid to think anything but what you already do.

and it will save America...

WTF?

 

[Shortbus]

Bush purposely killed thousands of americans, for no other reason than to increase his power.

never said that.

Muslims, really had nothing to do with this.

never said that.

Bombs were planted in the WTC towers by Americans.

never said that

A missile was shot at the Pentagon, by men in the military who have devoted thier lives to serving the USA.

never said that.

I never said any of that.

Nice attempt though, at putting words into my mouth.

 

[The Devil]

I try not to get into political discussions as they usually tend to irratate posters and start fights.....

All I will say to this is its about 98 % bullshit......

If someone wanted to get the right articles....get a few unnamed sources, maybe pay a few people....You might find out I was running for pope......

 

[Joe]

Name calling aside... there are two very large issues that remain unaddressed... ie. Where is the wreckage?

Forget what witnesses said, where is th beef?

Forget the why's, the video just threw out pure speculation. They obviously have no clue.

But, answer the where's...

How do two jetliners crash, one into the Pentagon the other in a field and vaporize??? No large wreckage, no bodies... how can this happen? Where is the science?

Considering that it has NEVER happened in the history of the jet aircraft how can it be possible to happen twice... on the same day...

Further, how can it possibly be that no bodies from the Pentagon plane were recovered, but all the bodies of the workers killed in the Pentagon were recovered?

Jingoism aside, there is far too much here to ignore.

But, if we must... American Presidents lieing to the American people... American citizens being sacrificed for corporate dollars... Iron - Does Vietnam mean anything?

 

[The General]

I think this was hypothetical on shortbus's part and he presents a very good discussion by the questions in the last para...

Let's say they were right, and our government was responsible for 911, and that they were instantly exposed say, tomorrow. What would happen? You can't fire every single government employee from Bush all the way down the the mail man and start over. What would you do?<!-- / message -->

IF IF IF... What would you do?

 

[opotus]

This is pathetic

 

[opotus]

....

 

[opotus]

This is why I hate politics and religion in sports gambling forums. It just angers me. It is true that I don't have to read this stuff, but when I stumble upon it, I can't help it.

All it does is fire me up. We all have strong beliefs, but I am not going to come to a sports forum to argue with people whose opinions can't be changed (I certainly won't change mine).

(gets me so fired up I can't even make a post without making mistakes and doubleposts)

 

[The General]

What would you do?

We should rephrase and ask about WE not you. We as Americans.

I am not agreeing nor disagreeing with any conspiracy. Just pondering the question at hand.<!-- / message -->

 

[Joe]

Does this belong on a gambling website? Hell no.

But, what is the harm in it?

I agree that many have opinions that will not be changed regardless of fact or circumstance. But there are those of us whose minds are open and enjoy the interraction with others seeking to answer similar questions....

Is that a bad thing?

 

[opotus]

But, what is the harm in it?

Is that a bad thing?

In my mind, politics and religion are only divisive.

I'm here to unite in the common interest - sports gambling.

Nevertheless, I can avoid it if I try.

 

[Nimue77]

There is a lot of bullshit and things not supported by evidence out there about 9/11 and some of it in this video. Don't just assume because 1 argument is poor in the video that all of it is bad. IMO, there is lots of evidence to support controlled demoltion and the official story about the collapses is easily debunked and that is one of the things that should be focused on. I would not even touch the pentagon issue at this point because I don't know of good evidence to support anything about that. Now, the supposed breakdown of the air defenses...not following standard operating procedure...that is another good area of inquiry. There are others, but shit like questioning what plane hit where or whether it was a plane at all are not what people should be focusing on and I think there are plenty of people out there intentionally showing that crap along side solid stuff in order to try and make people think its all crap.

Short, I have seen this entire video a few weeks back (a buddy of mine whos a conspiracy nut made me, lol), and I have some problems with it, specifically on the portion of the Pentagon. The guy claims no plane hit the Pentagon, and says that flight 77 landed safely in Cleveland, and its passengers shuttled to an empty NASA building..while he doesnt come out and say it, he wants us to infer that those people were killed...a major problem with that is the 100's of eyewitnesses on the scene that day (either driving to work/school, gardners, bike riders etc..) who say they saw a commercial airplane hit the pentagon...yes this guy does present 1 or 2 people who say they saw something else, but there are an overwhelming amount of witnesses who say they saw a plane, people who are not connected to each other, or the Admin. or anything, just random people interviewed on the scene by AP reporters, ABC etc...that would mean that the government would have to have all these civilians in on it as well..the film-maker presents a sloppy case with a lot of fill in the blank type stuff, but there is really very little concrete stuff there..
the events on 9/11 were in the works for many years, and this country has been asleep at the terrorism wheel for a long time..from Clinton ignoring attacks on our embassy and our Ship, all the way to Bush ignoring briefings and other warnings of an impending strike..

 

[Nimue77]

V for Vendetta was awesome. We need a millions of people with masks or not to surround the white house, congress, the pentagon, and anywhere else of importance in D.C. Now that would be cool!

Simply put, this video is disgraceful and if you can't see that you're a fool.

With an open mind, it doesn't take long to recognize this propoganda as the product of some childish amatuer with a camera and alot of time on his hands.

V for Vendetta is much better.

Iron.

 

[Nimue77]

I would call for new elections for everything...all senators, congressman, president, mabye impeach the whole supreme court, a whole sale house cleaning is needed. Some of the people, of course, would be in jail and possibly executed after trial. I also think the constitution should be somehow bolstered and made better...even a new constitution after the relentless attacks congress and the judiciary has inflicted on the constitution.

Let's say they were right, and our government was responsible for 911, and that they were instantly exposed say, tomorrow. What would happen? You can't fire every single government employee from Bush all the way down the the mail man and start over. What would you do?



IF IF IF... What would you do?

 

[Ironlock]

Shortbus-

I never said that YOU said those things, so stop putting words in MY MOUTH.!

However, THE VIDEO makes these claims, and you said that the video "had you thinking". I simply listed a few of the video's mind-blowingly rediculous claims to demonstate what a fool you must be to let it influence you.

Nice name calling though, demonstrates a high degree of intellectual thought processes.

Iron.

 

[Ironlock]

I have a very hard time NOT believing some of what is presented in this video.

Much of it just makes sense. And when you add in the video/audio interviews and comments made by those during the actual tragedy, it makes it even more disturbing.

Just in case you forgot what you wrote.

 

[Shortbus]

I actually find that calling you names comes quite easily. You've heard of the saying if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...?

I said "SOME" of it.

Also, the video did have me thinking.

As you can see in my "what if" comments at the bottom, which you were too arrogant to consider.

It was simply to stir debate on what would happen if it were found that our government actually did something to harm it's own people.

You are too smart for your own good evidently. I honestly think you are an insecure arrogant prick who thinks he's a whole lot smarter than he really is, but hey, what do I know right? I mean, I disagree with YOU afterall..

BTW,

Thanks to those of you who are intelligent and open minded enough to actually discuss the issue, rather than simply responding with demeaning and condescending comments.

 

[TONY MONTANA]

MAY'N!! listening to the two of you was alot more interesting than the video!!

I saw the video and it's been passed around the local unions.

I certainly don't want to stick my hand into this dog fight, because I think alot of both of you.

BUT the video lost me for good early when they claimed to see a bomb attacted underneath the plane. I didn't see chit. They had some crazy MF'ers on that panel too!!

Shortbus, I see what your saying and some of the video rised questions. One thing that was weird! That fvcking law book sitting on a stool with no fire damage to the book or any other part of that side of the building.

IRONLOCK, the glue and myself had the same arguement that you and SHORTBUS are having and these things get ugly!

I think it's safe to say that alot of things went wrong that day, but the bottom line IMO is that 22 fvcking TOWELHEADS kill a bunch of American that day and we should never forget or forgive!!
JMO!!

 

[TONY MONTANA]

DOG FIGHT!!

 

[Ironlock]

I I honestly think you are an insecure arrogant prick who thinks he's a whole lot smarter than he really is, but hey, what do I know right? .

Actually tough guy, I'm alot worse than that :+thumbs-2 , you just don't know me well enough.

In a nutshell, here is why arguing with people like you is a waste of time:

If a person opposes very evident truths, it is not easy to find an argument by which one may persuade him to alter an opinion. This arises from neither his own strength, nor from a weakness in the teacher. But when a man after being reduced to obvious contradiction in the course of argument, becomes hard as a stone, how in the hell can you deal with a person like this.

You are funny bro. I thought you were a pretty good guy when I met you. But I'm a bit bewildered that because I disagree with some punk that is lending support to some child claiming that America's leadership and military is killing its own citizens, I'm insecure and arrogant...lmfao. 10-4. Like I said, I'm way worse than that...but the insecurity is very apparent from your viciousness and abolute foolishness. I don't argue with fools and I ai'nt gonna start here. Anyway, hope you can get over this thread, it cleary has caused you to get all wound up.

Iron.

 

[Ironlock]

I
Thanks to those of you who are intelligent and open minded enough to actually discuss the issue, rather than simply responding with demeaning and condescending comments.

One more thing. I reserve the right, to demean and condescend any fucking person, that is retarded enough to spread propaganda and lies concerning the American Military and the willingness of an American Administration to KILL its own citizens to induce fear.


Iron.

 

[Shortbus]

One more thing. I reserve the right, to demean and condescend any fucking person, that is retarded enough to spread propaganda and lies concerning the American Military and the willingness of an American Administration to KILL its own citizens to induce fear.


Iron.

you're pretty fucking ignorant considering you represent EXACTLY what you described me as.

I didn't get "viscious" because you disagreed with me. I got that way because A, you did not read ANY of what I said. You simply saw what the post was about and immediately went on the defensive AND you insulted me in the process by calling me a fool. I can have no respect for someone like you who is going to insult me because of a message board post intended to stimulate thoughtful discussion.

I'm done with you. You are a waste of my time. I'm not even sure you have read anything that I've said. Now you can continue on being ignorant thinking that you are something that you obviously aren't.

Good luck to you in life...you're going to need it.

 

[Nimue77]

Most 9/11 truth seekers don't buy the so-called "pod theory" and many think it is a plant by those hoping to discredit the whole 9/11 truth movement. The video posted must have been the 1st edition of loose change because it is not in the 2nd edition which, btw, is a better version IMO. You can watch loose change 2nd edition at video.google.com and just type in loose change 2 and look for 2nd edition...not part 2.....or just look for my thread from months ago where I posted a link to it. I think it was titled "every american should watch this video." BTW, I am not claiming that everything in that video is true...and many parts don't come to conclusions and just raise questions. IMO, there is plenty of evidence to support controlled demoltion of WTC 1, 2, and 7 especially. Also, it is very easy to prove that standard operating procedures for intercepting aircraft were not followed on 9/11.

MAY'N!! listening to the two of you was alot more interesting than the video!!

I saw the video and it's been passed around the local unions.

I certainly don't want to stick my hand into this dog fight, because I think alot of both of you.

BUT the video lost me for good early when they claimed to see a bomb attacted underneath the plane. I didn't see chit. They had some crazy MF'ers on that panel too!!

Shortbus, I see what your saying and some of the video rised questions. One thing that was weird! That fvcking law book sitting on a stool with no fire damage to the book or any other part of that side of the building.

IRONLOCK, the glue and myself had the same arguement that you and SHORTBUS are having and these things get ugly!

I think it's safe to say that alot of things went wrong that day, but the bottom line IMO is that 22 fvcking TOWELHEADS kill a bunch of American that day and we should never forget or forgive!!
JMO!!

 

[Doc Mercer]

This is a good one and short and to the pt:

http://www.nearlygood.com/video/pentagonlies.html#Main