Do you bet them? I tend to pass them. One can look primarily at the bullpen but that can get blown up if the second pitcher ends up going 5-6 innings. I still don't believe in this strategy. It worked last year because teams weren't ready for it, and instead of adjusting and attacking the opener with good matchups, teams would just trot out their normal batting order. In the big picture, openers won't work because it leaves too many bullpen innings, which can be destructive over the course of a season.
Betting games with openers
- Thread starter Valuist
- Start date
I love the strategy of "openers," Valuist.
But remember, the strategy is being employed by desperate teams out of options, so it's difficult to judge its effectiveness.
The Rays used "openers" when a few of their starting pitchers were injured last season.
I'd love to see the Yankees or Dodgers start an Aroldis Chapman or Kenley Jansen in a postseason game.
We've seen Pedro Martinez and Madison Bumgarner in relief roles in big postseason spots, why not an elite closer blowing smoke for two or three innings to start a game, especially Game 7 of the World Series when there's no tomorrow.
Besides, managers today have quick hooks for most starters who struggle in the postseason.
I assume the first run of a postseason game is more valuable than the first run of a regular season game.
But remember, the strategy is being employed by desperate teams out of options, so it's difficult to judge its effectiveness.
The Rays used "openers" when a few of their starting pitchers were injured last season.
I'd love to see the Yankees or Dodgers start an Aroldis Chapman or Kenley Jansen in a postseason game.
We've seen Pedro Martinez and Madison Bumgarner in relief roles in big postseason spots, why not an elite closer blowing smoke for two or three innings to start a game, especially Game 7 of the World Series when there's no tomorrow.
Besides, managers today have quick hooks for most starters who struggle in the postseason.
I assume the first run of a postseason game is more valuable than the first run of a regular season game.
Is there a better word to describe a reliever who starts the game?
I understand "opener" is in contrast to "closer," but when I hear "opener," I think of the opening line.
I understand "opener" is in contrast to "closer," but when I hear "opener," I think of the opening line.
The problem is that managers are paranoid about just sending any Joe out there to close a game. This is why in our lifetimes, you won't see Chapmans or Jensens start a game. They aren't used to throwing much more than 1 1/3 or maybe 1 2/3 at the most. So if you hang in there and force the Chapman or Jensen opener out, you are at a decided advantage. Does anyone fear Baez if he were to pitch the 9th for the Dodgers? The Yankees are the exception in that they have a few guys who could actually close out a game. Let's say the Cubs used Kimbrel as an opener. He goes 2 innings and you are tied. And their big weapon is now done for the day.
What I don't understand is no team seems to alter their lineup to make life difficult for the opener. Let's just give them a 2 inning free pass. Somebody, at some point. will.
smartz
2
I've backed off. Because of the variability in the amount of innings the "starter" will pitch. I had a large play a month or so ago (link below) where I knew Yarbrough would take over after the 1st. Yarbrough pitching was a large factor in my bet and he was lifted after 40 or so pitches and he had yet to give up a run. Rays ended up losing the game in later innings. If I was more confident that the starter would do a 100+ pitches, I'd bet it again.
https://www.mlb.com/gameday/rays-vs...nal,lock_state=final,game_tab=box,game=567494
https://www.mlb.com/gameday/rays-vs...nal,lock_state=final,game_tab=box,game=567494
Good point.
Here's the move I want to see: Two pitchers, a righty and a lefty alternating hitters (righty v righty, lefty v lefty) over the first two innings, with one playing first base while the other is on the mound.
They would hit eighth and ninth in the batting order until the regular first baseman and team's top pinch-hitter would then enter the game for the pitchers.
Interesting although I would prefer them in the outfield, rather than 1B. Too much action at 1B for a non-position player. Yes, players who play other positions often successfully handle the move to 1B, but pitchers generally are not as athletic. If a pitcher was playing 1B, I'd have my players bunt up the first base line until that guy could prove he could defend the position.
But pitchers work on PFP (pitchers fielding practice) all spring long.
And besides, no one is bunting in baseball these days.
Would you prefer left field?
And besides, no one is bunting in baseball these days.
Would you prefer left field?
cheapseats
EOG Master
In the era of the shift, put them where it is not expected to be hit, pull hitter lefty, place them at the short stop position. You've basically given that place on the field a free ride anyway.
raycabino
Long Live Wilson!
I'm still mind blown that the shift is as successful as it is and that major league hitters don't do a better job of exploiting it. The shift basically gives singles away if the hitter will just take them whether by bunt or slapping the ball opposite field. Instead they just want to uppercut everything out of the park or strikeout. I get that in general that is the correct strategy to score the most runs despite fans hating it but not vs the shift.
Good point.
Waiting for the next evolution.
I'm amazed teams not named the Dodgers, Yankees or Astros don't experiment with new ideas.
If you have inferior talent, why play the same game the other teams are playing?
Mix it up.
Pitchers work on fielding their own position; not first base. There are guys who can bunt for a hit. Maybe not a lot, but more probably are capable but aren't allowed to by their organization. This wouldn't be a sacrifice; strictly bunting for a hit.
Yes, LF would work better.
And they do shag fly balls during batting practice.
Utilizing relief pitchers as position players is less dangerous than five or ten years ago when more balls were being put into play.
Utilizing relief pitchers as position players is less dangerous than five or ten years ago when more balls were being put into play.
Last edited:
However, the ball would ultimately find the vulnerable pitchers and the manager may not be able to withstand the criticism.
Teams like Baltimore, Kansas City, Detroit and Miami should experiment with some wild ideas.
raycabino
Long Live Wilson!
It's happening in Tampa John. They have no clue what the batting order should be now.
cheapseats
EOG Master
You see any advantage to the run, no run 1st inning with this.
Have to think advantage no run as the opener can go all out, not needing to save any energy.
FairWarning
Bells Beer Connoisseur
A wild idea for these teams (not necessarily KC) is to be able to identify talent and keep it. Instead of being the worst team in baseball, Detroit could have Verlander and Scherzer at the top of the rotation.
Good line, FW.
FairWarning
Bells Beer Connoisseur
The move that doomed Detroit for a decade was old man Illich tearing up miggy’s Contract and extending him at an ungodly amount.
I was going to add Porcello, who won a Cy Young with Boston, but considering his recent form, maybe he wouldn't help. At least this year.
FairWarning
Bells Beer Connoisseur
Forgot about Porcello, Sanchez also. They got little for those SP’s.
JK-I would somewhat disagree that openers are being used out of desperation. There has been a growing trend of not having a pitcher face a lineup for a 3rd time and the opener strategy is an extension of that philosophy. Teams are also protecting pitch counts a lot more than they used to. It wouldn’t shock me to see teams in the future not really even have a starting rotation but just a collection of pitchers to fill rolls depending on the lineups
Thanks for the clarifying note, Heisenberg.
The Rays had a clear strategy using veteran reliever Sergio Romo last season to start games before regularly using Ryne Stanek (29 times) and Diego Castillo (11) in the role of "opener."
Last season, the Rays used an opener in 55 games.
No desperation there unless you consider Tampa's team payroll versus the Yanks and Red Sox.
The Dodgers, Twins, A's and Rangers also employed "openers" last season.
The Dodgers used Scott Alexander when injuries sidelined many of their starting pitchers.
Interestingly, the A's used Liam Hendriks as an "opener" in their AL Wild Card game and lost.
One downside for the openers: they can only lose the game and they cannot qualify for the win.
Also, they may not get paid the money they deserve for doing a team's dirty work and battling through one of baseball's toughest innings.
The Rays had a clear strategy using veteran reliever Sergio Romo last season to start games before regularly using Ryne Stanek (29 times) and Diego Castillo (11) in the role of "opener."
Last season, the Rays used an opener in 55 games.
No desperation there unless you consider Tampa's team payroll versus the Yanks and Red Sox.
The Dodgers, Twins, A's and Rangers also employed "openers" last season.
The Dodgers used Scott Alexander when injuries sidelined many of their starting pitchers.
Interestingly, the A's used Liam Hendriks as an "opener" in their AL Wild Card game and lost.
One downside for the openers: they can only lose the game and they cannot qualify for the win.
Also, they may not get paid the money they deserve for doing a team's dirty work and battling through one of baseball's toughest innings.
Last edited:
I just read the Brewers used an "opener" last season in a September 24th game against the St. Louis Cardinals.
Milwaukee started left-handed reliever Dan Jennings to face Matt Carpenter and then pulled him.
Milwaukee started left-handed reliever Dan Jennings to face Matt Carpenter and then pulled him.
OLDSANDBAGGER
EOG Senior Member
How about:
Pre Headliner
Initiator
Designated Pitcher (similar to DH)
Pre Flop Pitcher
Just having fun
jimmythegreek
The opening odds start here
Next thing you know if a game goes past 13 innings and both or either team is out of players, the PAA will select 2 members from the stadium attendance to pitch.
Traditionalists be damned.
Designated Pitcher is interesting.
I like what you did there.
Even initiator is better than "opener."
But I think "opener" has taken hold now.