Can it get any worse offshore?

That is the comment I heard repeatedly over the last few days in Costa Rica. Customer acquisition costs (for the few who are still trying hard to get them) are through the roof. One marketing supervisor said new customers cost his book about 5 times as much on average as they did just 2 years ago. Even worse money transfer fees are completely out of control, with the latest new options popping up and then falling out in a matter of months if not weeks. Bank wires are slowly coming off the possibility list in some cases, as some banks get wise to who is sending the money. To top it off squares are getting fewer and further between while sharps are calling up daily whining about something. Some have even resorted to threatening to leave unless given some losses back arrangement since they have heard books are bringing in so few new customers. More sharps and less squares mean the sharps are going to get squeezed seriously.

I usually am very positive about the situation because the demand is clearly there, but wow I haven't heard bookies and especially their marketing people so gloomy before. It would seem to me the only hope is some serious consolidation or the "third way" as a few guys called it over some beers. The third way is to serve the Chinese and other Asians who can generate 5 times the profit at just the cost of paying off agents and then just pretty much go "Bodog" as they called it when dealing with US customers: mediocre lines/low limits/limited exposure to professional bettors.

No matter what it did not sound pretty at all. I sure hope I left with the wrong impression.
 

The General

Another Day, Another Dollar
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

Hearing from players almost daily, I just cannot get most to believe or understand the costs and troubles with processors. Thanks Bill.
 

dirty

EOG Master
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

I have talked Processor problems and Money Transaction costs for a year now and players still don't want to acknowledge the reality of the situation for these books
 

pioneer

EOG Dedicated
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

I have talked Processor problems and Money Transaction costs for a year now and players still don't want to acknowledge the reality of the situation for these books

BCWYAF....the logical conclusion for players, if they did fully acknowledge/comprehend the reality of the situation, would be for them to withdraw all their funds and stop playing offshore.
So ergo, my feeble-minded friend, (I have to explain everything to you it seems), your job depends on the players NOT fully acknowledging/comprehending the reality of the situation.

ps. you're welcome....no need to thank me...again....the reality of the situation is that gratitude is not your strong suit!
 

soli

EOG Dedicated
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

The reality of the situation seem to be that Betjam & The Greek don't seem to have those same processing problems others are having which make folks think these other Books are slow paying by design.
 
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

There is only room for maybe 10 books serving mainly USA.
 

The Prophet

EOG Dedicated
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

WOULD LIKE TO TAKE A MOMENT TO DEDICATE THE FOLLOWING NUMBER TO ALL THOSE U.S. FACING OFFSHORE GAMING PROVIDERS CURRENTLY STRUGGLING TO FIND FINANCIAL PROCESSORS WILLING TO ILLICITLY FRONT THEIR GAMING SERVICES TO AMERICANS?


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Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

WildBill:

What are your thoughts on some of these books that are still finding work-arounds for CC deposits? Are they just not sharing the info? Are the parties involved in processing these deposits just not wanting the added business/exposure?
 

PalmTree

EOG Dedicated
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

I've finally had enough. They wore me down. Used to have a dozen funded/credit offshore accounts. As of this week, i'm done with offshore. The hassle is just too much.
 

The General

Another Day, Another Dollar
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

The books have to have processors they can trust. Some processors have just taken the money and ran. And many processors will only send so many payments per day or week.
 

The Prophet

EOG Dedicated
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

I've finally had enough. They wore me down. Used to have a dozen funded/credit offshore accounts. As of this week, i'm done with offshore. The hassle is just too much.

YOU LASTED FAR LONGER THAN MOST I KNOW WHO LIKE THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY-GHOST CAUGHT THE LAST TRAIN FOR THE COAST ALONG WITH NETELLER.

EVIDENCE AMERICA’S WAR AGAINST OFFSHORE GAMING PROVIDERS/PROCESSORS IS ACTUALLY WORKING? :+clueless

TRUISM: OFFSHORE GAMING PROVIDERS NEED AMERICANS' MORE THAN AMERICANS' NEED OFFSHORE GAMING PROVIDERS. :smokesmal


.
 
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

WildBill:

What are your thoughts on some of these books that are still finding work-arounds for CC deposits? Are they just not sharing the info? Are the parties involved in processing these deposits just not wanting the added business/exposure?

Pretty much what you said. Processors can work and work for some time, but they have to stay under the radar. That is what Bodog has told me in the past. People bitch about 30 day waits which is obviously a shitty situation, but processors out there use strict limits because they know if they pass a threshold they'll get blacklisted. Some books are saying even Western Union is getting hard and they have set up systems that should show no connection. One money agent is located in an Asian country with no offshore gambling and yet the agent got sent some official documents from WU confronting him saying they had reason to believe he was involved with illegal gambling transactions. It was unbelievable, I wish I could share more details with you about what country he is in and his 3 aliases which would give you zero idea he is connected to his business.
 
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

I'm disgusted by all of this, but if anyone is unfamiliar with the basic time line of events for the last year and a half or so:

September 30-31, 2006 the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA) was passed by the Senate.

Within days respected gambling-law lawyers (e.g., I. Nelson Rose ) and others rebuffed it. An example of a common analysis from that time (from Hilary Stewart-Jones, of Berwin Leighton Paisner):
"We are reeling at the amount of misinformation that has been circulating in the past few days ... It's just a runt of a Bill which, contrary to reports, does not make it a criminal offence for the banks to handle these transactions. There are clear lacunae in the proposed legislation, which means that internet gambling may still be legal. The impact of the Bill is psychological more than anything else."
Less than two weeks later offshore sportsbooks, poker sites and casinos began to sell their US-facing businesses and leave the US market altogether.

Also at that time Partygaming issued at statement declaring their intent to cut-off US players in real money games:

After taking extensive legal advice, the Board of PartyGaming Plc has concluded that the new legislation, if signed into law, will make it practically impossible to provide US residents with access to its real money poker and other real money gaming sites. As a result of this development, the Board of PartyGaming has determined that if the President signs the Act into law, the Company will suspend all real money gaming business with US residents, and such suspension will continue indefinitely, subject to clarification of the interpretation and enforcement of US law and the impact on financial institutions of this and other related legislation.
Two weeks later, October 13, 2006, President Bush signed the UIGEA to make it law.

The "teeth" of the law had yet to be defined though, a task that was up to the US Department of the Treasury and the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System -- a task many said would be an unwieldy process, if not outright impossible.

In the next two months several more internet gambling sites denied US customers.

Throughout the entire affair (even before the bill was introduced to the House of Representatives) chatter in online gambling forums ran the range from outright defiance to fear and loathing.

January 11, 2007 Pinnacle, a highly respected book, abruptly announced it too would no longer accept action from US customers.

Pinnacle's rejection stunned most US customers.

Four days later, January 15, 2007, NETELLER's top two former Directors of the company, Stephen Lawrence and Mr John Lefebvre, were detained by US authorities and later charged with "laundering billions of dollars in gambling proceeds". The FBI issued as statement describing NETELLER as "colossal criminal enterprise masquerading as legitimate business".

NETELLER's fate, via a Deferred Prosecution Agreement:
NETeller, admitted criminal wrong doing and agreed to forfeit $136,000,000 for its part in a conspiracy to promote Internet gambling businesses and to operate an unlicensed money transmitting business. The company also agreed to return $94 million held in the accounts of U.S. customers since January 2007. The two founders of NETeller, Stephen Lawrence and John Lefebvre pled guilty to conspiring to promote illegal Internet gambling businesses and agreed to forfeit $100 million.
Near this time, June 2007, Partygaming accounced it was in talks with US law enforcement agencies to determine "what action, if any, they intend to take regarding industry players that had accepted bets from US citizens, prior to the signing of the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006."

And all of this happened before the bill was given it's official "teeth" by the US Department of the Treasury and the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System; that is, before specific rules were actually established to strangle to flow of money to offshore gambling sites.

In October 2007, the US Department of the Treasury and the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System finally got around to defining the required rules of the UIGEA. The way the did it was to identify methods of money transfer and then put it on the banks, money transfer services, and other financial institutions to "establish policies and procedures reasonably designed to identify and block or otherwise prevent or prohibit such transactions".

It seems the specific procedures and policies to block money are up to each individual financial institution and money transfer company.

Money transfer services that want to do business in this area may elect to design a more "liberal" system? I'm not naming names, but it should be clear.






Source: The War Against Online Gambling retrieved from The War against online gambling - How the US sought to stamp out internet gambling March, 25, 2007.
 
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

that is why virtually no new book has a chance post-neteller, and it all is going down to 10 books in CR. CR( and panama) books service largely Americans, if you live in a free country you play at Euro books, and maybe 5D and Bookmaker, no need for Wagerweb ,Betmania,Justbet,Thepig,and the like.
 
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

that is why virtually no new book has a chance post-neteller, and it all is going down to 10 books in CR. CR( and panama) books service largely Americans, if you live in a free country you play at Euro books, and maybe 5D and Bookmaker, no need for Wagerweb ,Betmania,Justbet,Thepig,and the like.

I agree although I think 10 is pushing it. I think there is room for about 4-5 US facing books and maybe some white labels off of them. I don't think books have the leverage anymore to take much of a position without facing some real risk. That is just the natural progression of events that comes when your customers get sharper, if you are stuck with a position chances are its a position you should worry at least a little about.
 
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

Here are a few suggestions that might help:

1- Stop asking for multiple transactions and withdrawals..

2- If everyone just played like they did in 2005, the industry might begin to thrive again....

3- Stick with the Elite Sports books...

4- Be patient with the processors (and realize that a lot of these delays are out of the sports books' control)....

THE SHRINK
 

jwunderdog

EOG Addicted
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

"2- If everyone just played like they did in 2005, the industry might begin to thrive again...."

You can't do that. In 2005 moving money to books was a couple of keystrokes away(neteller). If I had never used offshore in the past, I don't think I would try it now.
 

ShavenCoinpurse

EOG Dedicated
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

Here are a few suggestions that might help:

1- Stop asking for multiple transactions and withdrawals..

2- If everyone just played like they did in 2005, the industry might begin to thrive again....

3- Stick with the Elite Sports books...

4- Be patient with the processors (and realize that a lot of these delays are out of the sports books' control)....

THE SHRINK


Agreed, but how do you not ask for multiple transactions if you build your balance up? I have been burnt by BOS AND USDBET. I will never again carry a balance that I would not be comfortable losing. If I have a big couple of days, I am withdrawing. And how do you know the elite books? I was burnt by BOS before I knew about the forum warnings. But USDBET was considered very promising by EOG, SHRINK included, and they up and stiffed everyone.
 
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

I agree although I think 10 is pushing it. I think there is room for about 4-5 US facing books and maybe some white labels off of them. I don't think books have the leverage anymore to take much of a position without facing some real risk. That is just the natural progression of events that comes when your customers get sharper, if you are stuck with a position chances are its a position you should worry at least a little about.

There certainly are way more than 5-10 CR and Panama books directed at the US market, there must be a good hundred that aren't rated F by SBR.
 

patswin

EOG Veteran
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

Not good news, I was hoping things would be improving by now, they seem to be stagnant or getting worse
 

patswin

EOG Veteran
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

Wild Bill

How come there hasn't been a transfer system set up that players could transfer funds from one book to another similar to what we could do with neteller? Some books do it now, you can transfer funds from greek, 5 dimes, matchbook/wsex to each other with relative ease. Why wouldn't this work on a large scale....for instance, the transfer system would not handle deposits or cashouts, that could still be handled by the book itself. That way a transfer company would not be opening themselves up to possible US prosecution since they are only transferring funds from book to book, not sending funds to/from the US. Books could charge a small fee or doing this, or require a rollover or something similar? Would this work?
 

1eyejake

EOG Senior Member
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

I have been with SOS for 10 years - every time I call them - I get a Fedex the next day - US Funds - first one each month is free and all others $30

IF it take 2 weeks my guess is the book just does not have $

I am on day 15 with Betmania and now when I call they say to call back later ??????
 
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

Wild Bill

How come there hasn't been a transfer system set up that players could transfer funds from one book to another similar to what we could do with neteller? Some books do it now, you can transfer funds from greek, 5 dimes, matchbook/wsex to each other with relative ease. Why wouldn't this work on a large scale....for instance, the transfer system would not handle deposits or cashouts, that could still be handled by the book itself. That way a transfer company would not be opening themselves up to possible US prosecution since they are only transferring funds from book to book, not sending funds to/from the US. Books could charge a small fee or doing this, or require a rollover or something similar? Would this work?

not with low books.

The reason 5D doesn't transfer with say Lazerwager is 5D doesn't want Lazer owing them monies.

You have to be top grade to transfer with the other top books. Credits and debits are created, that need to be settled.
 
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

The word "blacklist" caught my attention.

How are money transfer services and financial institutions being "blacklisted" at this time?

I'll submit two ways financial institutions have blacklisted themselves: a minor and a major:

Minor Blacklisting: Corporations' Self-Imposed Restraint: Financial institutions, especially money transfer services (also called "processors"), have each created their own regulations to comply with the UIGEA. Specifics vary from company to company, but in general there are some minimum compliance rules written in black and white that must be conformed to. Such rules cause cascading effects from low-level workers upwards to management and which ultimately end up with a player's transfer being delayed or rejected.

Of course, before President Bush signed the UIGEA, there were no such minimum rules.

Major-Blacklisting: Avoid being NETELLER2: The "minor rules" serve the more important one, which is to avoid being targeted and attacked by the US FBI and other US authorities as per NETELLER. While they may not be prosecuted directly under the UIGEA, they could very well be attacked as NETELLER has, with the UIGEA only serving to give the US authorities a foundation.

So now we have processors walking on eggshells.

Low-level employees are just following the company manual.

But the managers are aware of the history of NETELLER.

While US players are outraged and befuddled at the state of affairs.

What is needed is a company (ideally, several) that offer services similar as NETELLER once did, but also is unafraid of and unaffected by the US Government authorities.
 
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trytrytry

All I do is trytrytry
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

Hearing from players almost daily, I just cannot get most to believe or understand the costs and troubles with processors. Thanks Bill.

seems to me all books could do Money gram which is basically $9.99 per transaction. They just dont want to and instead cry about processor problems.

A FEd EX letter is what $19.99 with a money order? Cheaper if sent form the US..These books dont want to make it easy to pay!! every book could pay 2 days max if they really want to and do it super cheap...
 
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

Why has nobody started such a company then ?

Moneygram stuff would scare off any newbie, IMO.

I'd think it was a scam (if new) to fund a book in CR, by sending money to Juanita Morales-Sanchez in Nicauraga.
 

trytrytry

All I do is trytrytry
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

they should just have a guy picking up funds in the same country that is true..so strange they do that..Bulgaria was my last spot.
 
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

seems to me all books could do Money gram which is basically $9.99 per transaction. They just dont want to and instead cry about processor problems.

A FEd EX letter is what $19.99 with a money order? Cheaper if sent form the US..These books dont want to make it easy to pay!! every book could pay 2 days max if they really want to and do it super cheap...

Clueless.
 
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

Why has nobody started such a company then ?

Moneygram stuff would scare off any newbie, IMO.

I'd think it was a scam (if new) to fund a book in CR, by sending money to Juanita Morales-Sanchez in Nicauraga.

Good points, Doug. But "why has nobody started such a company then" is easy to answer, because who would?

Such a company would have to be outside of the reach of US law and also be able to establish trust with US customers.

At this time it is, to say the least, an unfavorable climate to attempt to garner investors towards establishing a money transfer service related to moving money from online gambling US customers.

Who's going to invest, maybe some millionaires in the Middle East, South America, or North Africa?

Not likely.

Establishing trust with US customers, as you point out, is also a factor.

But establishing trust could happen, it would just take a few years. Take a look at AlertPay, as an example who started in 2004 and are just now getting big.

But I take an optimist's position on this point, maybe one that is not realistic?
 

dirty

EOG Master
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

seems to me all books could do Money gram which is basically $9.99 per transaction. They just dont want to and instead cry about processor problems.

A FEd EX letter is what $19.99 with a money order? Cheaper if sent form the US..These books dont want to make it easy to pay!! every book could pay 2 days max if they really want to and do it super cheap...

they should just have a guy picking up funds in the same country that is true..so strange they do that..Bulgaria was my last spot.


Do you think these books have not thought of trying that :+clueless It is not that they do not want to offer all the services..WU and MG included...They can't... It is not as easy as it sounds and I have seen it first hand in Panama. It is totally baseless and way off base to think that Many of these books don't want to pay timely and have processing problems...



Clueless.


Yes...trytrytry is way off base here....
 

msftkid

EOG Addicted
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

Gentlemen there is still the old-fashion credit stores !! There are plenty who have operated their business in a reputable fashion which has enabled them to survive for years and years! These local stores eliminate all the monetary logistics off-shore operations produce. I promise when all the off-shore operations cease to exist the local store will always be open to all reputable customers.
 

munson15

I want winners...
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

Gentlemen there is still the old-fashion credit stores !! There are plenty who have operated their business in a reputable fashion which has enabled them to survive for years and years! These local stores eliminate all the monetary logistics off-shore operations produce. I promise when all the off-shore operations cease to exist the local store will always be open to all reputable customers.
But do they have the convenience of online, 24/7 business, low juice, maybe a bonus now and then, etc.?
 

msftkid

EOG Addicted
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

No 24 7 I agree . My stores and the others I am familiar with have a simple Maxim FAST MONEY MAKES FAST FRIENDS! No bonuses or freebies just just a old fashion honest and reputable store. These type stores offer different type of opportunities: line arbitrage oppertunities,english speaking clerk's store gives line breaks to my good customers all the time,service from 1st game to end of last game daily. Most importantly I let my customers dictate their settle-up arrangements from the beginning and we live up to it. In summary we strive to give basic good customer service like any other business. Finally you know me or the operators of these local business so you so each individual can decide on the integrity and character of these stores.
 
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

Gentlemen there is still the old-fashion credit stores !! There are plenty who have operated their business in a reputable fashion which has enabled them to survive for years and years! These local stores eliminate all the monetary logistics off-shore operations produce. I promise when all the off-shore operations cease to exist the local store will always be open to all reputable customers.

The credit shops in CR are getting screwed badly right now with the stiffs. I know a couple of people with great sheets based here in the US who are losing 50-100% of their cut because stiffs are popping up left and right. Fact of the matter is most people who want to gamble should be forced to do it cash upfront. These moronic anti-gambling people say offshores are bad for gamblers, but someone who offers no credit and works cash upfront is a hell of a lot better off than someone who just runs up a huge mess chasing. Bottom line is a number of people who played offshore are turning to local sheets and then showing little honor and stiffing. Credit shops should be doing a bonanza of business, but they are not and as long as credit stores are clearly illegal they always will have issues. If you fucked over a mob-fronted shop you'd be scared shitless if you stiffed. If you fuck over a shop based in CR where some buddy of yours is the agent, what do you fear?

As for why its tough to start a transfer service, just think to yourself who would you trust? About the only people you would trust are those who are already in some form of cash handling business. Do you guys have any friends who you would trust with a quarter million dollars minimum? What would you do if you trusted him and he did the right things, but got pinched by the Feds or some zealous AG? You'd be fucked, much like the credit shops are.

And for the worst reason why this is all messed up, go re-read the Youbet situation. Those guys were basically forced to pay extortion money to the US government. It was absolutely hideous, if anyone but the government did that it would be a RICO crime!
 

The Prophet

EOG Dedicated
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

IT SHOULD GO WITHOUT SAYING (POST-NETELLER) THAT MORE THAN SOME OFFSHORE GAMING PROVIDERS ARE HAVING “PROBLEMS” FINDING PROCESSING FRONTS POSING AS LEGITIMATE FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS WITH AMERICANS…

SUCH FOREIGN PROVIDERS ARE LIKELY HAVING SOME OF THEIR OWN FINANCIAL “PROBLEMS” AS WELL…

YET IMAGINE JUST WHAT OTHER SERVICES ARE ALSO POTENTIALLY BEING PROVIDED TO WORLD CRIMINALS BY THOSE FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS WHICH CONTINUE TO KNOWINGLY PROCESS FUNDS ILLEGALLY BETWEEN FOREIGN BOOKIES AND AMERICANS.

THE “PROBLEM” FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF AMERICAN LAW ENFORCEMENT IS THAT THE ILLICIT PROCESSING OF FUNDS BETWEEN FOREIGN GAMING ENTITIES AND AMERICANS’ CONTINUES…BUT IT APPEARS THAT THEY’RE WORKING ON CORRECTING THAT PROBLEM.

LIQUIDITY IS THE OIL OF ANY ECONOMIC ENGINE WITHOUT IT, THE ENGINE WILL EVENTUAL SEIZE…IT CAN BE NO OTHER WAY…AS DISBELIEVERS WILL EVENTUAL CONCLUDE.

CAN IT GET ANY WORSE OFFSHORE?

ABSOLUTELY…WHILE THE CURRENT “I FOUGHT THE LAW AND THE LAW WON” PATH MANY HAVE ELECTED TO KEEP TRAVELING WOULD SEEM TO ASSURE IT FOR THEM.

.
 
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

The credit shops in CR are getting screwed badly right now with the stiffs. I know a couple of people with great sheets based here in the US who are losing 50-100% of their cut because stiffs are popping up left and right. Fact of the matter is most people who want to gamble should be forced to do it cash upfront. These moronic anti-gambling people say offshores are bad for gamblers, but someone who offers no credit and works cash upfront is a hell of a lot better off than someone who just runs up a huge mess chasing. Bottom line is a number of people who played offshore are turning to local sheets and then showing little honor and stiffing. Credit shops should be doing a bonanza of business, but they are not and as long as credit stores are clearly illegal they always will have issues. If you fucked over a mob-fronted shop you'd be scared shitless if you stiffed. If you fuck over a shop based in CR where some buddy of yours is the agent, what do you fear?

As for why its tough to start a transfer service, just think to yourself who would you trust? About the only people you would trust are those who are already in some form of cash handling business. Do you guys have any friends who you would trust with a quarter million dollars minimum? What would you do if you trusted him and he did the right things, but got pinched by the Feds or some zealous AG? You'd be fucked, much like the credit shops are.

And for the worst reason why this is all messed up, go re-read the Youbet situation. Those guys were basically forced to pay extortion money to the US government. It was absolutely hideous, if anyone but the government did that it would be a RICO crime!



Gosh, how much big-time gambling jargon can we have in one thread?

I love this.."Fact of the matter is most of the people who want to gamble should be forced to do it cash upfront."

Ya' think, Wild Bill? Film at 11.

This is great stuff.
 
Re: Can it get any worse offshore?

msftkid, that is great, but I live in a community that has 200,000 people in the area and like most it's size there were plenty of these "stores" 8+ years ago, but as online became bigger, easier, with bonuses, and 24/7 most people running these "stores" decided it just wasn't worth it to be "open" from morning until night on weekends. first they stopped taking baseball, then hockey, then only weekend basketball, and finally the "store " closed. I moved my family back to this area over 2years ago, and while actively looking for a local store, there seem to be none open any longer. So, it comes down to online or nothing. Quite frankly I don't like my choices.
 
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