POKER : How to play 7-7 on the button pre flop
- Thread starter Sam Odom
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I would raise, you dont want any of the BB or SB getting to look at a free flop and land 2 pair on you with the 4 9 they have in their hand. Your chance of hitting trips is not good, so you want to weed out as much competition as possible. Not only that by raising after someone called, they may put you on a larger pair so you can bluff at it if the flop comes all big cards.
jerseymike
EOG Enthusiast
Brandon12345 said:
I agree....:+signs9-1
The General
Another Day, Another Dollar
Listen to your gut.
Well, if you are on the button then you are in position. So, if someone bet on the flop out of position, my guess would be that they have a hand (could be a good drawing hand since it is limit) but I cant think it would benefit you to call. Of course there are so many other factors that go into making a decision, but my gut would say if they called and then raised out of position then they have at least 2 high cards if not an pair higher then 10s. Of course you could always come over the top and re-raise, but most likely if your playing online or against donkeys they will play TPTK til the death so their is no point in bluffing.
Waste of time playing limit games. Those types of hands, and these types of questions and responses basically prove it.
KingofTheHill
EOG Enthusiast
wantitall4moi said:
haha, ya right, when you can make doctors wages, then come talk to me.
I would raise, here, not because I want to weed out people (although somewhat).
Reasons for raising
1. MOST IMPORTANT- YOU ARE RAISING TO BUY THE BUTTON. It gives you, most likely, the best position for the rest of the hand.
2. A limper early, in most full 5/10 games, are usually weak players, you want to get HU, or 3 way with weks players.
3. Vs. most 5/10 players you probably have the best hand at that point, so you are raising for value.
The post flop play is so dependent on how many players called, and what the texture of the flop is, added to what kind of players you are playing against, that I cant answer your other question.
David Matthews
EOG Enthusiast
I would always raise. It's an excellent hand and you have position postflop and if you don't hit you can often win with a bet, especially if the blinds are out.
Definite raise.
I would raise with a lot of worse hands in this position. Probably would even raise with 56 offsuit in that spot.
Definite raise.
I would raise with a lot of worse hands in this position. Probably would even raise with 56 offsuit in that spot.
77 is a top ten hand (as illustrated by Phil Helmuth)
Position is important, and you are on the button, and only one person from middle position has limped in - He probably doesn't have anythign really good maybe Ax or Kx, not strong enough.
If this is either a SH or Full Ring, and you on button you have to Raise to eliminate the blinds and force yourself heads up.
Also bet the flop no matter what, assuming the villian checks. And re-evaluate on the turn if necessary.
That is how I often play 77 in limit, and even in NL (I would raise)
Ivan's Note: Position and Play wins you $
Position is important, and you are on the button, and only one person from middle position has limped in - He probably doesn't have anythign really good maybe Ax or Kx, not strong enough.
If this is either a SH or Full Ring, and you on button you have to Raise to eliminate the blinds and force yourself heads up.
Also bet the flop no matter what, assuming the villian checks. And re-evaluate on the turn if necessary.
That is how I often play 77 in limit, and even in NL (I would raise)
Ivan's Note: Position and Play wins you $
You guys obviously don't play a lot of poker, and most surely do not play poker in California.
With a full table you have a minimum of 4-5 callers. 7-7 is trash. You call and hope you hit a flop. If 2 overcards hit you fold unless there isn't a bet then you check(unless it is a 6-8-9- rainbow flop, then you can call but still check if no one bets).
In a limit game there is absolutly NO WAY to protect a decent hand, and trying to bluff is suicide. The whole irony of limit poker is the point. You have a $120 and for $20 (1/6 the pot) you still have good enough pot odds to call just about anything, and most people will. Raising and rerasing preflop just builds the pot giving these clowns more reason to call.
I haven't played in alimit game (excluding touries) in about 3-4 years, but I watch enough of them to see they are a waste of time and money. If you hit a couple pots in a row you can clean up, but you might as well have the dealer play your hand and call every bet they make until the river and hope you hang on. I have seen 7-8 people cap bets all the way to the river in 10-20 liimit games, unless you have an unbeatable hand on the turn you will get beat by someone on the river with that many callers more often than not.
AA 6 way against a any suited hands is actualy an underdog. If somone else has an ace it is a pretty big underdog. So 77 is trash in most limit games period.
But since only one other player called then do what you want I guess. I would still call and see what happens. Most guys are going to protect their blinds, even with trash. I just disagree with the circumstances I guess.
With a full table you have a minimum of 4-5 callers. 7-7 is trash. You call and hope you hit a flop. If 2 overcards hit you fold unless there isn't a bet then you check(unless it is a 6-8-9- rainbow flop, then you can call but still check if no one bets).
In a limit game there is absolutly NO WAY to protect a decent hand, and trying to bluff is suicide. The whole irony of limit poker is the point. You have a $120 and for $20 (1/6 the pot) you still have good enough pot odds to call just about anything, and most people will. Raising and rerasing preflop just builds the pot giving these clowns more reason to call.
I haven't played in alimit game (excluding touries) in about 3-4 years, but I watch enough of them to see they are a waste of time and money. If you hit a couple pots in a row you can clean up, but you might as well have the dealer play your hand and call every bet they make until the river and hope you hang on. I have seen 7-8 people cap bets all the way to the river in 10-20 liimit games, unless you have an unbeatable hand on the turn you will get beat by someone on the river with that many callers more often than not.
AA 6 way against a any suited hands is actualy an underdog. If somone else has an ace it is a pretty big underdog. So 77 is trash in most limit games period.
But since only one other player called then do what you want I guess. I would still call and see what happens. Most guys are going to protect their blinds, even with trash. I just disagree with the circumstances I guess.
KingofTheHill
EOG Enthusiast
wantitall4moi said:
I play as much limit poker in 1 month, than you probably have seen or played in your whole life. 77 is not trash in limit games.
1. The original poster SPECIFICALLY STATED THAT THERE WAS ONLY 1 LIMPER.
2. If there are 4-5 limpers, AWESOME!. You limp 77 and hope for a set, otherwise you toss it, you dont seem to understand the concept of expected value.
3. YOU WANT THEM TO PROTECT THIER BLINDS WITH TRASH....if you dont suck, 77 v trash + decent postflop play = money.
4. You are right on some points, 4-5 callers w/ overcard, you fold. You dont bluff, etc. But to say that limit poker is a waste of time, is completely ridiculous, just becuse YOU dont know how to apply simple concepts, doesnt mean its a waste of time for everyone. If you can find me another job that makes me 120$/hour, while Im still in school, hook me up.
5. By your logic, since AA is an underdog v 4-5 players, so is 77 (ie trash). But you dont toss AA do you? no. you know why? because of pot equity. You are giong to win with AA about 30% of the time, there are 5 players giving you thier money. 5:3 seems like good odds to me. 77 obv doesnt have as much equity, but if you arent a donkey, it still has positive equity.
I did amend it due to the conditions of the original question. The problem is the original question is almost fantasy these days.
I don't play online so games might be tighter I don't know. But where I go I see it all the time. Even in the higher limit games of 20/40 and 30/60 you can have 3-4 guys in on the flop. But when guys are sitting there with 10-15K in chips it isn't hard to do. It is a game of luck for most of them. they play every hand they have any part of, and some thatthey don't. Hoping to win mre than they lose. And with that much cash on the table they can afford to do it, because eventually they catch the guys who play "smart' enough to break them. If it costs 800-1000 a hand to stay in one bad beat breaks most guys.
That is the reality I am talking about. Granted the parameters of the question aren't that extreme, but it is all relative. If you are sitting on a grand with 7-7 and you raise and get reraised then what? You almost have to call even if it is 3 way. Say the BB and the limper both call the raise. So now you are in for 20 bux. The you get a flop like AK7 with a couple suited cards. BB bets, limper calls, and you can either raise or call. So you call, now in for 30. A blank hit the turn, BB bet, limper raises, now what do you raise or do you call? Most would raise, BB call, limper reraise, NOW what? You HAVE to cal even though you have to think you are already beat. But you cal and BB RAISES. Now you are stuck. You are now in the hand for 120 (12% of your stack) ad you have to hope the board pairs, and even then you have to worry about pocket KK or AA or AK. So you are basically in for at least another 20 if not 120 if things play out. Say a third suited card hits? That actually might save you. But the pot has $420 in it so calling a $20 bet won't kill, but still costs.
Obviously a set up situation, but 3 way you have to think a set is good. But say BB had AK and the limper had the 2 suited cards. NEITHER of them is going anywhere iether. So it is a race situation. You had the best of it (but didn't know it) but you got caught. No one really made a mistake since mathematically everyone was correct AK can't put you ona set, and the flush draw still had the right odds to call or even raise, even with the blank because the pot was big enough to semi bluff at.
People are along for the ride in these situations, and the more people calling the worse those hands become. In a no limit game you can definately get rid of that draw, especially on the button. Getting rid of the AK probably won't happen, but he has a lot fewer outs than both of them combined. So you WANT him to call.
I don't play online so games might be tighter I don't know. But where I go I see it all the time. Even in the higher limit games of 20/40 and 30/60 you can have 3-4 guys in on the flop. But when guys are sitting there with 10-15K in chips it isn't hard to do. It is a game of luck for most of them. they play every hand they have any part of, and some thatthey don't. Hoping to win mre than they lose. And with that much cash on the table they can afford to do it, because eventually they catch the guys who play "smart' enough to break them. If it costs 800-1000 a hand to stay in one bad beat breaks most guys.
That is the reality I am talking about. Granted the parameters of the question aren't that extreme, but it is all relative. If you are sitting on a grand with 7-7 and you raise and get reraised then what? You almost have to call even if it is 3 way. Say the BB and the limper both call the raise. So now you are in for 20 bux. The you get a flop like AK7 with a couple suited cards. BB bets, limper calls, and you can either raise or call. So you call, now in for 30. A blank hit the turn, BB bet, limper raises, now what do you raise or do you call? Most would raise, BB call, limper reraise, NOW what? You HAVE to cal even though you have to think you are already beat. But you cal and BB RAISES. Now you are stuck. You are now in the hand for 120 (12% of your stack) ad you have to hope the board pairs, and even then you have to worry about pocket KK or AA or AK. So you are basically in for at least another 20 if not 120 if things play out. Say a third suited card hits? That actually might save you. But the pot has $420 in it so calling a $20 bet won't kill, but still costs.
Obviously a set up situation, but 3 way you have to think a set is good. But say BB had AK and the limper had the 2 suited cards. NEITHER of them is going anywhere iether. So it is a race situation. You had the best of it (but didn't know it) but you got caught. No one really made a mistake since mathematically everyone was correct AK can't put you ona set, and the flush draw still had the right odds to call or even raise, even with the blank because the pot was big enough to semi bluff at.
People are along for the ride in these situations, and the more people calling the worse those hands become. In a no limit game you can definately get rid of that draw, especially on the button. Getting rid of the AK probably won't happen, but he has a lot fewer outs than both of them combined. So you WANT him to call.
KingofTheHill
EOG Enthusiast
wantitall4moi said:
I didnt read your whole post, but I know where you are going with this, becuase it happens all the time....basically, and listen to this, because this is poker gospel...
I would rather have 9 people see a flop for 4 bets, when I hold AA, then 3 people seeing a flop for 2 bets.
For a lot of people that suck post flop, tend to disagree with me.
To be a succesful limit player, you must basically do 3 things, get as much money as possible into the pot when you have the best hand, fold as early as possible when yuo are not getting correct odds (ie you are beat), and be able to read peoples hands to determine the above 2 things.
I play 20/40 live, on the weekends mainly, because there are routinely 4 or more people seeing a flop, which is awesome...during the week its usually 4 or less routinely....I make much more money on hte weekends.
If people know enough to fold what you say is true. Most don't. If you know the people you play with and they know you it also is a factor. Especially if they respect you a little bit.
I am pretty tight and I only showdown the nuts for themost part. Makes it a lot easier on me. Limit games are tough because unless you play a lot it all gets lost in the pandemonium. They only see and remember the times you win. But in a no limit game when you bust it off in someone's ass a couple times EVERYONE at the table remembers that.
Good debate. I won't question it because I only play no limit and pot limit now, and even those two are light years apart in strategy.
I am pretty tight and I only showdown the nuts for themost part. Makes it a lot easier on me. Limit games are tough because unless you play a lot it all gets lost in the pandemonium. They only see and remember the times you win. But in a no limit game when you bust it off in someone's ass a couple times EVERYONE at the table remembers that.
Good debate. I won't question it because I only play no limit and pot limit now, and even those two are light years apart in strategy.
KingofTheHill
EOG Enthusiast
wantitall4moi said:
Yes, I think hte problem is you are looking at it from a nl point of view. NL is a different beast obv, and has a different strategy set. Limit = viewing things in black and white (fairly concrete), No/Pot Limit= a lot of grey. You cant make a big score in limit, which is why it turns a lot of people off, you need to be able to realize what you have to do, to get your expected hourly rate in the positive numbers, and then do it. Much easier said than done. No limit, there is a little more leeway, because your edge over a bad player in no limit is SO MUCH BIGGER because of your ability to change bet sizes, that it usually does not take as long for you to make your money, in limit it takes much longer for the money to funnel to the good players....BUT becuase of this reason, you have a higher percentage of terrible players at higher limits, in limit poker, compared to no limit. IE you may have 3-4 fish at a 50/100 limit game, but only 1 or 2 at a comparable 10/20 nl game.