Some Interesting Numbers from a Credit & Post Up Sports Book...

THE SHRINK

THE SHRINK

1
1-They have 3 times as many Post up Players compared to their Credit Players...

2-The Credit Players make up 2 times their Volume

3-Their HOLD is 3% from the Credit Side and 8% from the Post Ups...

THE SHRINK
 
Glaken

Glaken

1
SHRINK...I have heard that 5.5-6.5% is needed for a book to be successful ... is this about right in your opinion?
 
THE SHRINK

THE SHRINK

1
Glaken,

I know of books who do quite well holding a lot less...

What do you think the HOLD is at PINNACLE for starters? :cocktail
 
O

OMNIVOROUS FROG

EOG Master
How much of the hold is hit when a McIrish tilts? I mean is indiscreet with his password. Credit is the land of slow pays and no pays, ask Spiro. Post up is bird in hand. Especially recreational post up. That bird comes precooked.

Best Wishes...OF:+waving-5
 
Ironlock

Ironlock

2
Good info Shrink.


Two conclusions one could draw from it:

Credit players play bigger.
Credit players are sharper in general.

Iron.
 
Glaken

Glaken

1
THE SHRINK said:
Glaken,

I know of books who do quite well holding a lot less...

What do you think the HOLD is at PINNACLE for starters? :cocktail
Click to expand...

Thats not fair the Volume skews the number ....

I would say 2.5-3.2% :cocktail
 
Sam Odom

Sam Odom

EOG Master
Glaken said:
SHRINK...I have heard that 5.5-6.5% is needed for a book to be successful ... is this about right in your opinion?
Click to expand...

Large grocery store chains hold about 1/2 of 1%:wow1 They can do so because of volume
 
O

OMNIVOROUS FROG

EOG Master
Bigger and sharper = Patrick McIrish?

Not in FROG's dictionary. Even books that have credit with other books have gone the slow pay or no pay route. They didn't blame fictitous nephews or hobgoblins. Credit is an asset to those with disclipline, a debt to bet into for those without. Not for everyone, many go their entire careers without using credit. The SHRINK, if you operated a book, would you offer credit or not?

Best Wishes...OF :+waving-5
 
J

jwunderdog

EOG Addicted
Ofrogg, Post up is something new because of internet, Bookie's have been around for 100 years and almost all locals are credit and most do quite well.
 
Ironlock

Ironlock

2
jjgold said:
Credit players are not sharper in general

Why are all locals rich then?
Click to expand...

My point is that all locals would be RICHER if they had post-up players. Just because locals are rich, doesn't mean credit players are more stupid than post-up players. The wealth of a local is not dependant upon the comparative relationship between the sharpness of credit versus post up players.
 
Ironlock

Ironlock

2
jwunderdog said:
Ofrogg, Post up is something new because of internet, Bookie's have been around for 100 years and almost all locals are credit and most do quite well.
Click to expand...

Both lose in general, but post-up players lose faster..in general. That's what the numbers suggest.
 
THE SHRINK

THE SHRINK

1
OMNIVOROUS FROG said:
Bigger and sharper = Patrick McIrish?

Not in FROG's dictionary. Even books that have credit with other books have gone the slow pay or no pay route. They didn't blame fictitous nephews or hobgoblins. Credit is an asset to those with disclipline, a debt to bet into for those without. Not for everyone, many go their entire careers without using credit. The SHRINK, if you operated a book, would you offer credit or not?

Best Wishes...OF :+waving-5
Click to expand...


That's a REALLY GOOD question. If I had a sufficent staff and bankroll, I'd roll the dice and accept both POST UP and CREDIT accounts...

THE SHRINK
 
O

OMNIVOROUS FROG

EOG Master
Post up is relatively new, and is the only way I would operate. I want that bird in hand. Every local I know has had to settle, or forgive. Or got stiffed. In the old days profits were steep enough to cover those bad debts. These days with the offshores, and the juicier offerings, some of those locals who do it the old way types are no longer as fat as the old days. One untimely death, illness can wipe out a big week. I have seen scammers collect and collect, run up a huge losing week and bounce. No way. In God We Trust at CR FROG's. Everyone else posts up.

Best Wishes...OF:+waving-5
 
THE SHRINK

THE SHRINK

1
OF,

Then you'd never get to a PINNACLE or OLYMPIC status but I understand your position...

You are a WISE chicken...

However, I have seen post ups go under too..

Raiders,

BOTH are profitable if MANAGED correctly...

THE SHRINK
 
raiders72001

raiders72001

1
Frog- Do you know how tough it is to break into the post up biz? How can you compete with the huge bonuses and -104 , -105 and -107 vig? Credit is much better if you have to choose between the two.
 
raiders72001

raiders72001

1
Shrink- If you had to start up between the two why pay all the overhead for post up? Nowadays you can hire someone for $25 or $30 a head to write all your business. No way I would starrt post up first. I'd go credit, then try post up.
 
J

JJGOLD

1
I would take credit guys anytime over post up guys

Why?

Credit guys lose more and if you have a strict pay policy you will clean up
 
Glaken

Glaken

1
I think the question of how to insure credit accounts will be paid in the internet age should be thrown in here?
 
Ari Gold

Ari Gold

2
Everyone looking in always think that post up business is such a great way to go when the post 911 realities of moving money off shore is a big headache.

Combined with bonuses you pay out to get that post up money and the fees you eat in and out through Neteller, WU ect, and not to mention credit card chargebacks and fraud you wind up having to beat the players twice just to collect 100% of what his betting capital is. Then an entire department just to do those transactions while the credit shops have long running agents who have been dealing years with much of it's business members.
Any agent worth his salt won't allow some shooter to come in fresh without getting some cash upfront or take it off the guarantee player so they post up in that sense to minimize risk. Sure some idiot who just starts letting people fire away at him to generate business will get soaked on bad credit players but those don't last off shore either.

You have to have more than double a hold percentage on post ups just to offset the overhead they bring.
 
O

OMNIVOROUS FROG

EOG Master
CR FROG will be modeled after BoDog, Bet365. We are not looking for that large credit guy, we just want that recreational player. The smiling skull, a happy loser. And we will give him reup bonuses to comeback and do it again. Maybe he will wander over to our casino side, after a bad day at sports. Maybe listened to touts on another sportsbooks site. Oops. Tapped again. Have a pizza and a cold one, watch the game with your full juice bet.

Girls, promotions, contests. Smallish limits, $250 on internet, because, it is just for fun betting. Will I ever be a top book? Nope, no desire. Would rather pick the cherries and enjoy life.

Best Wishes...OF :+waving-5
 
raiders72001

raiders72001

1
Frog- And how do you go about getting customers? You need heavy advertising and bonuses to get the BoDog types. BoDog just signed up a record 4,000 new customers for football season but they spent a fortune in TV and radio advertising.
 
Ari Gold

Ari Gold

2
The Vegas post up is the only good way because it's cash in hand on each bet. Until you can get a formula where that will work off shore getting the post up money in your hand has many strings and costs and legal risks.
 
J

JJGOLD

1
Very easy to collect from credit players if you do your homework and know your customers and cut him off when you know he is dry
 
Ari Gold

Ari Gold

2
Shot taking off shore through deposit methods has to be seen to be believed for those who look at it as the promised land. European and Asian group in particular are amazing with cyber crime.
 
W

Whoson1st

EOG Dedicated
Very interesting info--Shrink. Sometimes, I wonder how you ever decided to become a "shrink" rather than a "Dan Rather" . When it comes to good investigative numbers and skills---I think you are probably 2nd to none!!
 
O

OMNIVOROUS FROG

EOG Master
Ari, you are giving me a headache talking me out of it. I give up. No, I have no interest in starting a post up book offshore, zero. Mainly because of the reasons you mentioned.

As far as Bodog, they target the right audience, and since gambling is still generally unaccepted, you have a lot of guys go through the who do you use method to get a bet down. Refer a friend. So now friend of square, brother of square, father of square have all heard of BoFROG. Do you think BoDog would mind if I were BoFROG? So after that drift I would have the entire square family. And by word of mouth get others. Half of these guys, if not more never even heard of a gambling forum. They just think BoFROGs high prices are normal. And our futures, what a rake. Lots of dumass props with a 30 cent line. And our casino, all our dealer's are large breasted flirtatious computer generated babes. It is a pleasure to lose to them. You market to the right clients, and they spread the word themselves. What do you think the hold is on a business model like this?

Best Wishes...OF :+waving-5
 
THE SHRINK

THE SHRINK

1
BOFROG??? LOL

I think you are on to something good!!! :doh1

Better register that URL before someone else does....:cocktail :cocktail
Whodatman,

Thank you...:+thumbs-2

THE SHRINK
 
O

OMNIVOROUS FROG

EOG Master
I'd rather be on something good for tonight. Last week the Trotter deal was a gimme. Doubt I will get pennies from heaven tonight. Everyone wants that MNF play. Looks like a force at best. What's worse is a rare double header. Thanksgiving just no Detroit. These games are lined right.


Best wishes...OF:+waving-5
 
The General

The General

Another Day, Another Dollar
Credit can be very bad, but as pointed out, with discipline it can be a great opportunity as well.
 
Bucky

Bucky

EOG Dedicated
Personally, I think local credit and offshore credit are 2 entirely, different things. Let's take a random sampling of 100 credit players representative of the mix.

How many play locally?

How many play with an agent offshore?

Volume locally?

Volume offshore with an agent?

% stiffs locally?

% stiffs w/ agent offshore?



Without inflecting bias in my poll I agree there are sharps, squares, and whales in both places but my guess is that there are way more sharps in one of the two arenas and to lump them both together as "credit" players seems ambiguous.

When we refer to post up players that theoretically includes amounts played in Vegas, right? So, I guess there is post up offshore and Vegas post up but rarely do we talk about them as being in one group.
 
The General

The General

Another Day, Another Dollar
In credit, you find the REAL honesty and integrity of some people also. Vice Versa applies as well. :hung
 
THE SHRINK

THE SHRINK

1
JJ,

The type of CREDIT players I am referring to is not the same as those who bet with Locals...

It can be harder to get a CREDIT account offshore than it is to get an American Express Platinum card.

AND, I believe that's a GOOD thing!

THE SHRINK
 
Ari Gold

Ari Gold

2
Most old locals are now just agents using off shore books for writing their action now. No office, clerks or phone bills to raise alerts with local law. Getting credit with them is the same it was when they were booking it themselves. Referral or cash up.
 
Bucky

Bucky

EOG Dedicated
Makes sense AG. They deal current #'s that way. But, then the local is susceptible to middles - sides - etc. Oh, yeah - they have to deal with explaining line changes to every player that calls in.
 
rainbow

rainbow

EOG Master
I think opening up a new Sportsbook these days is real tough, because its too much competition, you would have to have atleast 20% or 25% BONUS are you wouldnt get a whole lot of post ups, for EXAMPLE Olympic NAME is already there, so Spiro DOESNT HAVE TO GIVE NO 20% or 25% BONUS to get any business because he already has it. new books are VERY SCARCE these days regardless if you give the big BONUS or not, as far as CREDIT players if you know the right AGENTS I see no problem with it, expecially the AGENTS thats been in business for sometime, I can remember all through the early 1980?s through the mid 1990?s collecting money wasnt really hard, even big figures, in the last 10yrs it is a total different story.

PS, if someone like SHRINK would open up a POST UP shop tomorrow he wouldnt have no problem, SIMPLY because he has a name, all the MONEY in the world cant BUY that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top