Where can I find a closing line value calculator?

Sportsrmylife

EOG Master
Is there a site with a good one or simple post the formula to calculating this?

I'm looking to find what is better when I see +5 -115 or +4.5 -105 type of stuff.
 
(y):) . . . and a tip of the cap to Crick and Don Peszynski (Win More -- Lose Less!), under who's tutelage I learned how to do that sort of thing hopefully without screwing it up too royally with my liberal arts education.
 

raycabino

Long Live Wilson!
Square, do you know how long ago these pts calcs have been updated? Reason I ask is that all these sports constantly change. Everything from rules to coaching philosophies/use of sabermetrics which obviously changes the distribution of points scored. Ex: pushing xtra pt back to 32 yds has made for more missed pats as well as made teams more likely to go for 2. Both of these things have a negative affect on strong numbers like 3 and 7 and have a positive affect on your weaker numbers like the 1 2 5 6 8 9 etc. Hockey has had a big change in the last 3 or so years in logic. Goalies are now getting pulled late in games at a much higher rate than 3 years ago which makes the puckline of 1 worth a good bit less. Baseball managers are now pulling starters a lot quicker and in blowouts are going to position players to pitch and inning or 2 a ton more than in the past which obviously changes run distribution from the past. So long story short, if this is something ganchrow put together 10 -15 years ago it is probably not as accurate as you would want it to be. However if it is using the most recent data then it's a great tool for always finding the best bet available on a given side.
 
Hey Ray. I would assume that the SBR half-point calculator is based on updated push rates, but I have not independently confirmed that as yet on the fly.

Some of the SBR NFL push-rate values are within rounding amounts of Donnie's push rates from back in 2011, prior to some of the key NFL rule changes. (Donnie's rates were the push rates that I was using when tracking stale lines play as a mechanical strategy for a while here on EOG during the 2017 season.) I suspect that back in 2011 Donnie rounded his push-rate values up/down to flat numbers for ease of use, at the very least for what we were doing back then on Dave's viewfromvegas.com in culling out the 5 most mathematically advantaged stale lines plays in the SuperContest.

Other SBR push rates, however -- like the SBR push rates for 1, 3 and 4 -- are outside rounding up/down parameters in relation to Donnie's flat number (and likely rounded) 2011 push rates.

For example, the Don Pezsynski and SBR push rates compare as follows:

. . . DP . . . SBR

1 . . 2% . . 2.50%

2 . . 2% . . 1.98%

3 . . 9% . . 9.79%

4 . . 2.5% . 2.99%

That would suggest assigning higher relative value for moves off or through the 1, 3 and 4 than with Donnie's 2011 numbers, assuming that the SBR push rates are more current and accurate.

If anyone has any updated info that either confirms or calls into question the current accuracy of the NFL push rates on the SBR calculator, I would love to see that.

And if the SBR NFL push rates in fact are outdated, I would love to see some updated gold-standard push rates to take into account for next season and beyond -- as I continue to track the historically somewhat-close-but-no-cigar performance of a purely mechanical stale lines strategy for contests.
 
As follow up . . .

The push rates in the chart in the circa November 2014 piece below are identical to the push rates in the above-linked SBR half-point calculator, just rounded to the tenth, which would suggest that the SBR half-point calculator values predate the 2015 NFL rule changes.

http://www.sports-picker.com/how-to-bet-on-nfl-covered-spread-betting-with-push-charts.html

Consistent with that assumption, the author of an undated piece that I can't find the bookmark on again now stated -- at some point -- that the SBR calculator push rates were outdated.

The link below has push rates for the decade from 2009 through 2018, which -- not quite satisfactorily -- straddles the rule change.

https://www.sportsbookreviewsonline.com/halfpointchart.htm

Of course, there have been only five seasons since the rule change, including 2015. Quantitative methods are not my strong suit, but I would think that there could be an issue of having too small of a data set to work with for good overall push rate values. And they tweaked the scoring rules again recently in mostly eliminating the conversion/try/PAT after a walk off winning touchdown at the end of regulation. So that's another change affecting scoring to consider. I would think that slicing and dicing the periods in question into ever finer tranches to account for changes in rules, etc. would tend to cut against the need for a deep enough data set to get good push rate values not overly influenced by normal random short term variance. Until the rules/conditions had been stable long enough to get a deep enough data set for reliable new push rates.

That's one of my 17 reasons why I really am not a total fan of the NFL continuing to change things that are not dictated by player safety/liability concerns. The conversion/try/PAT rules have made things more interesting, no doubt, but it does rejigger things that we rely on or use in sports betting.

Perhaps one of the math guys could weigh in on how many seasons of NFL data it would take to get fairly reliable push rate values from a quantitative methods standpoint following a significant change that potentially affects push frequency vis-a-vis different numbers.
 

raycabino

Long Live Wilson!
As follow up . . .

The push rates in the chart in the circa November 2014 piece below are identical to the push rates in the above-linked SBR half-point calculator, just rounded to the tenth, which would suggest that the SBR half-point calculator values predate the 2015 NFL rule changes.

http://www.sports-picker.com/how-to-bet-on-nfl-covered-spread-betting-with-push-charts.html

Consistent with that assumption, the author of an undated piece that I can't find the bookmark on again now stated -- at some point -- that the SBR calculator push rates were outdated.

The link below has push rates for the decade from 2009 through 2018, which -- not quite satisfactorily -- straddles the rule change.

https://www.sportsbookreviewsonline.com/halfpointchart.htm

Of course, there have been only five seasons since the rule change, including 2015. Quantitative methods are not my strong suit, but I would think that there could be an issue of having too small of a data set to work with for good overall push rate values. And they tweaked the scoring rules again recently in mostly eliminating the conversion/try/PAT after a walk off winning touchdown at the end of regulation. So that's another change affecting scoring to consider. I would think that slicing and dicing the periods in question into ever finer tranches to account for changes in rules, etc. would tend to cut against the need for a deep enough data set to get good push rate values not overly influenced by normal random short term variance. Until the rules/conditions had been stable long enough to get a deep enough data set for reliable new push rates.

That's one of my 17 reasons why I really am not a total fan of the NFL continuing to change things that are not dictated by player safety/liability concerns. The conversion/try/PAT rules have made things more interesting, no doubt, but it does rejigger things that we rely on or use in sports betting.

Perhaps one of the math guys could weigh in on how many seasons of NFL data it would take to get fairly reliable push rate values from a quantitative methods standpoint following a significant change that potentially affects push frequency vis-a-vis different numbers.
Well you can do it now but you would have to use logic along with the data to reach reasonable conclusions. Keep in mind for football especially, there is never enough data/games to make perfect push rates using just data alone. Therefore you have to apply some logic with the data to make some reasonable conclusions. Two very smart people can take the same data and come up with slightly different push rates based on the logic they use to come up with their push rates and they can be both equally good.. Now if any of the push rates between them are different by 1% or more then I would conclude that one of them is using flawed logic but being different by .2-.3% is more than reasonable imo. Another words there is nothing set in stone that says the push rate on the 7 is exactly X and the push rate on the 3 is exactly Y. We can get reasonably close (the push rates you have there from before 2015 certainly qualify as that as they all look very reasonable) but we never truly know if they are exact like the hit rate of the 7 on a dice table which we know has to be 1 in 6 (16.666666666%) long-term.
 
Well you can do it now but you would have to use logic along with the data to reach reasonable conclusions. Keep in mind for football especially, there is never enough data/games to make perfect push rates using just data alone. Therefore you have to apply some logic with the data to make some reasonable conclusions. Two very smart people can take the same data and come up with slightly different push rates based on the logic they use to come up with their push rates and they can be both equally good.. Now if any of the push rates between them are different by 1% or more then I would conclude that one of them is using flawed logic but being different by .2-.3% is more than reasonable imo. Another words there is nothing set in stone that says the push rate on the 7 is exactly X and the push rate on the 3 is exactly Y. We can get reasonably close (the push rates you have there from before 2015 certainly qualify as that as they all look very reasonable) but we never truly know if they are exact like the hit rate of the 7 on a dice table which we know has to be 1 in 6 (16.666666666%) long-term.


Well, that is interesting.

Must confess that I've never pulled back the curtain to this extent on push rates, as I was working with a set from someone with more expertise in the particular field than I. And they have been a quick and useful tool for what I was doing, as compared to other alternative methods available to me with the resources at hand for ranking relative mathematical advantage on contest plays.

If I understand these correctly, a push rate measures the percentage of time a game lined at a particular number, such as the favorite laying 3, will fall exactly on that number for a push. I believe that about 14 to 15% of all NFL game results (i.e., the margin of victory) -- regardless of the spread set on a game by the market -- fall on the 3. In contrast, about roughly 9% of games lined at -3 in the past have ended with the favorite winning by 3. And I assume that the push rate is in reference to a consensus market closing number for games, as lines of course move during the week and further may vary at different properties at the close.

So, when I see push-rate charts with perhaps close but varying percentage values, my most natural assumption would be that those varying values would be due to the push-rate analyses having been (a) conducted over different periods of time and/or possibly lengths of time; and/or (b) different consensus closing numbers having been used.

(It thus would be nice when folks publish a push rate chart to note the period of time covered and the consensus closing number source relied upon, as many often do. The 2011 threads where we did the analysis of SuperContest stale line moves no longer are available online on VFV, so I can't go back now and see what Donnie may have said about the underlying basis for the push rates that he was using.)

But it is new information to me that people are making what I would call subjective judgements -- a/k/a logic -- in assigning push rates.

The empiricist in me would feel more comfortable with push rates based on actual experience -- how the numbers actually fall over time -- rather than upon assumptions about what will happen and how the numbers likely will fall over time.

For example, the third graphic on the site below would suggest that -- perhaps counterintuitively -- the rule changes did not reduce the incidence of games overall falling on the 3 and the 7 in the first three years of the rule change:

https://www.actionnetwork.com/how-t...-tips-odds-rule-changes-margin-victory-spread

As I've demonstrated -- empirically -- multiple times on posting boards, including here, I let my math skills atrophy while going down an instead wordsmith track in college and law school. But I did take logic and advanced logic as a philosophy major. And, to me, presumed logic can be a subjective and slippery beast.

For example, as NFL games start to come down to the wire, the trailing team has a strong incentive if and as they score late to get the scoring differential back to a margin of, e.g., 3 or 7. In practice over time, that tendency may to a large extent counteract an otherwise logical assumption that the rule changes would negatively impact the number of times that games will end on margins of victory of 3 or 7.

Time, as they say, will tell. But if I'm going to use purportedly mathematical values sometimes carried out up to multiple decimal places, my druthers would be that those highly specific multiple-decimal-place values reflect what "the math" actually has shown, not what someone subjectively thinks it will show.
 

raycabino

Long Live Wilson!
Well, that is interesting.

Must confess that I've never pulled back the curtain to this extent on push rates, as I was working with a set from someone with more expertise in the particular field than I. And they have been a quick and useful tool for what I was doing, as compared to other alternative methods available to me with the resources at hand for ranking relative mathematical advantage on contest plays.

If I understand these correctly, a push rate measures the percentage of time a game lined at a particular number, such as the favorite laying 3, will fall exactly on that number for a push. I believe that about 14 to 15% of all NFL game results (i.e., the margin of victory) -- regardless of the spread set on a game by the market -- fall on the 3. In contrast, about roughly 9% of games lined at -3 in the past have ended with the favorite winning by 3. And I assume that the push rate is in reference to a consensus market closing number for games, as lines of course move during the week and further may vary at different properties at the close.

So, when I see push-rate charts with perhaps close but varying percentage values, my most natural assumption would be that those varying values would be due to the push-rate analyses having been (a) conducted over different periods of time and/or possibly lengths of time; and/or (b) different consensus closing numbers having been used.

(It thus would be nice when folks publish a push rate chart to note the period of time covered and the consensus closing number source relied upon, as many often do. The 2011 threads where we did the analysis of SuperContest stale line moves no longer are available online on VFV, so I can't go back now and see what Donnie may have said about the underlying basis for the push rates that he was using.)

But it is new information to me that people are making what I would call subjective judgements -- a/k/a logic -- in assigning push rates.

The empiricist in me would feel more comfortable with push rates based on actual experience -- how the numbers actually fall over time -- rather than upon assumptions about what will happen and how the numbers likely will fall over time.

For example, the third graphic on the site below would suggest that -- perhaps counterintuitively -- the rule changes did not reduce the incidence of games overall falling on the 3 and the 7 in the first three years of the rule change:

https://www.actionnetwork.com/how-t...-tips-odds-rule-changes-margin-victory-spread

As I've demonstrated -- empirically -- multiple times on posting boards, including here, I let my math skills atrophy while going down an instead wordsmith track in college and law school. But I did take logic and advanced logic as a philosophy major. And, to me, presumed logic can be a subjective and slippery beast.

For example, as NFL games start to come down to the wire, the trailing team has a strong incentive if and as they score late to get the scoring differential back to a margin of, e.g., 3 or 7. In practice over time, that tendency may to a large extent counteract an otherwise logical assumption that the rule changes would negatively impact the number of times that games will end on margins of victory of 3 or 7.

Time, as they say, will tell. But if I'm going to use purportedly mathematical values sometimes carried out up to multiple decimal places, my druthers would be that those highly specific multiple-decimal-place values reflect what "the math" actually has shown, not what someone subjectively thinks it will show.
Agree. I didn't do a good job of explaining what I meant by logic in the previous post. The logic I was referring to wasn't just using gut instinct that this has to be higher or this has to be lower. The logic I was referring to is the logic used to analyze the data. There is never enough data to just take all nfl games with closing lines of 3 and deciding how many of those games land on the fav winning by exactly 3. It just isn't enough data so you have to get creative in how you analyze the data by using ranges. Another words. I'm sure you get a more accurate push rate on the 3 by taking all games with a pointspread of say pk to 6.5 and seeing what % land exactly on the fav of 3 than taking just the games where the game line was exactly 3, and 3 is the biggest sample by far. Could you imagine trying to fine the push rate for the 15 if you only analyzed games where the spread closed exactly 15?). So I'm not saying that using pk to -6.5 to determine the push rate of the 3 is optimal but I know it's better than just using all the 3's for lack of sample. So the logic I'm referring to is the logic used in analyzing the data to reach your conclusions which at the end of the day will be somewhat subjective.
 
Ah, that makes more, uh, logical, sense, lol.

I swear that legal training impairs (my) English comprehension.

Well, the search for a good, current set of push rates for the post-rule change era continues.
 
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