Cascade Responds...

[pioneer]

Originally Posted by pokerking

Lenny stole 6 figures from me. That's why he refuses to mediate. He owes me money.

Hard to believe you PK, after the Shrink posted this just yesterday...

pokerking,

Lenny has agreed to mediation...

Please send me an email...

Ken

[pokerking]

He hasn't agreed to mediation. I talked to Lenny and the Shrink yesterday. We started mediating this in December and Lenny backed out when he didn't like how it was going. You can ask the General and the Shrink about that.

[slash]

Why didn't you try to let Billdozer from SBR do the mediation instead? You should have been around long enough to know that he is probably the only guy you can trust on these things.

[PIPE]

WAIT A MINUTE....LET ME SEE IF I GOT THIS CORRECT..LENNY AT CASCADE SAYS TWO POSTERS CLIP JOINT AND POKERKING OWES CASCADE BIG MONEY...POKERKING SAYS ITS THE OTHER WAY AROUND THAT LENNY IS THE STIFF..SHRINK COMES IN AND POSTS...

pokerking,

Lenny has agreed to mediation...

Please send me an email...

Ken

AND POKERKING CONTINUES TO RAMBLE.. I DONT GET IT...IF LENNY DOES OWE POKERKING LET SHRINK AND LENNY TALK ABOUT IT INSTEAD OF GOING ABOUT IT THIS WAY..SHRINK HAS ALWAYS TRUSTED LENNY AS FAR AS I REMEMEBER SO MAYBE WE CAN GET THIS STORY RIGHT AND SEE THE LIGHT ON WHATS TRULY GOING ON WITH CASCADE...AS A SIDE... IF OR NOT THESE TWO PLAYERS ARE OR ARE NOT STIFFS THAT SHOULD NOT HINDER CASCADE ON PAYING THEIR OTHER DEBTS TO OTHER PLAYERS..A BOOK LIKE CASCADE SHOULD HAVE LOTS OF MONEY BEHIND THEM IF THEY INTEND TO OPERATE CORRECTLY IN THESE TIMES..YOU WONT SEE A BOOK LIKE BODOG GO THROUGH SOMETHING LIKE THIS...EVEN THOUGH IM NOT A BODOG LOVER MYSELF..

[The General]

Originally Posted by slash

Why didn't you try to let Billdozer from SBR do the mediation instead? You should have been around long enough to know that he is probably the only guy you can trust on these things.

Slash, while it may not mean anything to you or anyone, I do take exception to the comment. I have worked for players to long not to share that there is not ANY type of problem with trust concerning me. I do respect your opinion though and I hope you do mine as well. I agree that Bill is a good help to many gamblers also. I just hope you guys realize how much I do care and will help anyone the best I can with over 4½ yrs exp handling dispute resolution. I thank you for sharing.

All the best

[michael777]

the general has helped me out in the past,good guy

[IDENTITY]

pokerking - did you win 6 figures playing yourself? what is the nature of the debt owed to you, if i may ask? you dont have to share obviously if it's personal. do you know if the story about clipjoint is true?

[pokerking]

The General and the Shrink have helped me before and they tryed to help me here but Lenny just renegged on his promise to mediate.

[pokerking]

Originally Posted by IDENTITY

pokerking - did you win 6 figures playing yourself? what is the nature of the debt owed to you, if i may ask? you dont have to share obviously if it's personal. do you know if the story about clipjoint is true?

There were a few postup accounts that Lenny just stole the money from. I don't know anything about clipjoint. The accounts actually lost over 6 figures so it wasn't winnings. Lenny just stole everything.

[JohnnyDeMarco]

SO IF EDDIE HADEED DIDNT PAT BECAUSE HIS CREDIT CARD PROCESSORS STIFFED HIM. HE IS ABSOLVED?

[pioneer]

Originally Posted by pokerking

He hasn't agreed to mediation. I talked to Lenny and the Shrink yesterday. We started mediating this in December and Lenny backed out when he didn't like how it was going. You can ask the General and the Shrink about that.

Well, Shrink?
And the General posted 78 mins after this post by PK yet he never mentioned it. Maybe PK is telling the truth?

[slash]

Originally Posted by The General

Slash, while it may not mean anything to you or anyone, I do take exception to the comment. I have worked for players to long not to share that there is not ANY type of problem with trust concerning me. I do respect your opinion though and I hope you do mine as well. I agree that Bill is a good help to many gamblers also. I just hope you guys realize how much I do care and will help anyone the best I can with over 4½ yrs exp handling dispute resolution. I thank you for sharing.

All the best

General, I have always respected you in the past, and I still do. You have probably helped me too a long time ago. But now you are teamed up with people that don't have that same track record of telling the truth and being completely unbiased, so that's why I think Billdozer is the way to go...

Sorry if that offends you, but again, I respect what you have done and still do.

[Breaker]

What is a postup account?

[Monte]

Originally Posted by Reload

How do they owe Cascade so much? That much credit got extended to them somehow?

Exactly! They should have never let them run that much credit up without paying some money that they owed.

Also I thought Cascade said they were waiting on a money infusion from an investor?

[Monte]

Originally Posted by JohnnyDeMarco

SO IF EDDIE HADEED DIDNT PAT BECAUSE HIS CREDIT CARD PROCESSORS STIFFED HIM. HE IS ABSOLVED?

Didn't he have 2 stiff books at different times.

[Monte]

Why did Delmar and Cascade part ways?

[Richard@Cascade]

Ken has been on the phone 3 way with both Lenny and Pokerking.

Clipjoint is or was a book owner with a layoff account.

[MadCapper]

Originally Posted by Richard@Cascade

Ken has been on the phone 3 way with both Lenny and Pokerking.

Clipjoint is or was a book owner with a layoff account.

What does that mean Richard?

[JohnnyDeMarco]

Didn't he have 2 stiff books at different times.

I think it was just the last one. not 100% sure.

[Bucky]

This is a new spin. Your money is not here - Pokerking and Clip Joint have it.

Very valid point that too much credit was extended. Pokerking says he got stiffed and then took a shot and stuck it to Cascade????

Clipjoint laid off big action and lost???? Couldn't have been very sharp action that lost that much - LOL!!! Either Clipjoint was dumber than a posthole laying off that much sharp action or he took a shot as well. If Clipjoint laid it off - why couldn't he pay it because the players that made the bets with him lost, also. So, unless he got stiffed by the players making the bets he should have been able to pay Cascade.

So, now Cascade took the players post up money and is accepting bets they cannot pay?

Now, the bottom line is that Cascadee says Poker King and Clip Joint have the postup money????

I've got the solution!!!! Cascade sends all the post up players the name, address, phone number of where the money is at! LMFAO

I do give Cascade credit for fighting like a dog to hang on. Anybody that trys that hard to survive is getting some credit from me. Truth or bullshit - who knows? Whatever, it takes-if Cascade is owed money and they need help collecting it - I say let the dogs out - go get em. If here is no penalty for being a stiff - people will keep taking shots. But, it goes the other way as well. Right is right - wrong is wrong. If Poker King is right - the dogs need to tree the stiff at the other end of the line- put them out of business. But, somebody needs to do something, otherwise - all this is - another piss and moan - slow pay spin. And it is just another BS excuse.

I actually don't believe any of it - letting somebody get mid six figues in is nuts - letting somebody stiff you for 6 figures is nuts. Neither story is believeable. Very possible, that this is a cleverly thought up stall to create misdirection. Clip Joint and Poker King might even be Lenny's ghosts - WTFK's????????????? Anybody ever met PokerKing and Clipjoint in person????

You want to believe somebody - it has to be somebody you can find - ring his door bell. Nobody else.

[world traveler]

to me this just reads as another sad story proving how 99% of books in business today are nothing more than glorified pyramid schemes. As long as the deposits keep flowing in nothing goes wrong the minute a wench gets thrown in the cogs all hell breaks loose. 10 yrs in this industry and Lenny could not see this gambling crack down coming...please as soon as Caruthers got nabbed everyone was transferring all cash into anonymous places as fast as possible. Sure alot got caught with their pants down with Neteller but a shop the size and age of cascade learned a long time ago you only carry a balance in Neteller that would cover your average weekly payouts, the rest of the cash goes to bank accounts. If Lenny has learned anything over 10yrs of online booking is you NEVER EVER EVER leave all your money in a payment processor, no matter how big or small.
Get real guys no private shops place monies in escrow...certainly not ones based here in CR. Post up monies are used as working capital whether or not its to pay out players or cover hosting bill. Assume the minute you send money to an offshore account the only thing thats yours is a dollar amount listed on a screen, your monies along with everyone else's is quickly and efficiently placed into accounts controlled by the book owner, or their attorneys, period. If you win your are asking the book to give you their money and pay it to you, forget this dream that its your money until you loose it, you send it to them...its theirs.

[PIPE]

Originally Posted by Richard@Cascade

Ken has been on the phone 3 way with both Lenny and Pokerking.

Clipjoint is or was a book owner with a layoff account.

GOOD START RICHARD..DOES THIS MEAN THAT POKERKING ISNT A STIFF LIKE CLIP JOINT APPEARS TO BE ????

[IDENTITY]

cascade is absolutely pathetic to be stiffing 5 figures...cascade is now synonamous with the likes of betus, royal, abetz, etc.

[teazeman]

Originally Posted by pioneer

Well, Shrink?
And the General posted 78 mins after this post by PK yet he never mentioned it. Maybe PK is telling the truth?

add 24 hrs.............still waiting for an answer to this?

[Monte]

Originally Posted by JohnnyDeMarco

Didn't he have 2 stiff books at different times.

I think it was just the last one. not 100% sure.

It was 2

Notice I didn't put a ? mark at the end of the sentence.

[sean1]

This is the most ridiculous thread I have ever seen.

In 10 years, I don't think I've ever seen a book say we can't pay cause someone is stiffing us.

Beyond that, we have a book calling out people in public who were likely working as agents. That seems like a really dumb ass idea in this day and age.

Finally, Lenny has been in business for 10+ years with an A rating most of those years. How the hell is he not a millionaire many times over?

I hope Lenny gets it worked out. he had a good shop, but none of this makes sense.

No way is Lenny broke over $200k....

Sean

[pioneer]

Originally Posted by pioneer

Well, Shrink?
And the General posted 78 mins after this post by PK yet he never mentioned it. Maybe PK is telling the truth?

2 days now and no reply from the Shrink or the General....hhmmmm

[detroitdennis]

MONTE, I BELIEVE eddie had just one stiff book.. i believe he sold the first one to victor chandler and had open a second one which he had stiffed everyone... EDDIE had no reason to stiff. Eddie is a very rich person there in antigua..

[detroitdennis]

IS this the same monte who was head linemaker at betcris?

[wizofescazu]

Lenny starts a chain reaction here in more ways than one..He uses the excuse hes not getting paid so he isnt paying, and then everyone he is going to pay doesnt pay because they are waiting on him..Now he says he will pay..which is wonderful..its the basic problem of the credit world..If you extend unlimited credit, your margin of error widens..Big $$$..always big problems..

[Dethaniel]

Excuse me for choosing to no longer lurk but rather post an opinion on what seems to be an ongoing dispute between; those who are owed money, those who are trying to explain why they are currently not able to pay, those who would simply like to bash on someone, those with what everyone loves to call "an agenda" who may also classify as "shills" (be it for better or worse) and those who are either supporting the people who are owed or the people who are trying to pay. Oh yeah and those simply hanging out for the show...

In order to simplify things it would be wise to break it down to basics. The issue at hand is someone being owed money by someone who is currently for x or y reason not able to pay.

It would be wise to reason at this point and see what facts we can find for both arguments the two main ones being A. Are people being ripped off intentionally with a malicious intent to steal their funds or B. Is there a shortage of cash flow at the moment not allowing people to be paid in a timely manner?

Let us examine the facts. What facts do we have to support that cascade is in any way trying to steal or withold payments from players? Have they shown this behavior in the past? Does this behavior fall in line with what up until now has been the business model of the company? Do people in the industry who know the owner well honestly believe that this is what is going on?

on to question B. Shortage of cash flow... definately and I do not even think this is to be questioned. If the money was there it would be paid. There is no reason not to pay your players.

So where does this leave us? With players owed money by a book that at the moment is unable to pay. Why? Honestly you could probably count on one hand the people who truly know. Is it money stuck in processors? Money lost in Neteller? People not paying what they are owed? Bad book making? Bad business management? Or simply the bad luck of having all the aforementioned crop up at once or none of them at all? Who knows certainly not I and probably not most of you either.

What I do know is that it is not a good time for the industry as a whole. Uncle Sam has eagerly yanked our pants down and has no intention of using vaseline. (If we are lucky he might use a bit of spit, doubt it though). Moving money is a bitch right now... So in this time of hardship should we A. Show solidarity and support, patience and understanding or B. Bicker and bitch like children while we are slowly made obsolete? Or maybe not... maybe the future is not so grim maybe this will be legalized and regulated like it should be and converted into what it is for many of us... having a bit of money on the game while we have some beers with the guys and in the words of BJ "sweating the game, not the...."

I agree that in an ideal situation you should be able to send money and withdraw as you like. What are plausible reasons for not being able to? A. The book itself B. the people who manage money for the book i.e. processors, e-wallets, Banks placing restrictions on doing so or C. lack of funds or lack of accessible funds i.e. anything that is worth something but is not liquid.

I would guess cascade is suffering from B. and C. The only fact I have for saying they probably will pay is to base this on their history and track record. Should we go back in time one year I do not think there would be one person here to say Cascade was a bad book or put them in the same sentence as Royal, BetUs and all the usual ones we love to point out as an example of how not to run a book. I believe what we have is more a case of a book falling on hard times and the vultures trying to close in. Well vultures good luck and for sure have a go at it if that is your nature.

The character of a man is based on actions. An honest man will pay all his debts however long it takes and at whatever personal cost. He does this because he knows that money does not make the man. Actions, principles, morals that which cannot be bought, sold, or traded do.

In my experience the honest bookmakers out there are few and far between. Times of trouble are what will measure them. I am sure we have all learnt at one time or another that everyone is your friend during the good times. So let us see what goes on if Cascade is an honest book it will pay everything it owes no matter the time or cost. Reputation has no price. In the future we will look back and either say "yeah they were a stiff book who had us tricked for 10 years before we caught on to their scam" or "Yeah Cascade is a solid book that even under turbulent times and heavy opposition did all it could to get people paid." Time will tell truth is none of us know right now.

That it may be unwise to play there now... it is up to you to decide what level of personal risk you are willing to take. There is no such thing as a completely solid book. Anyone who says otherwise is simply believing their own lies. How long have we been hearing that this is they year Royal takes it all and runs? How many thought that what happened to BOS would happen? The basis for the use of any book is built on trust through the test of time. Cascade may or may not have passed this for some people this is after all a personal matter.

To all people who are owed money I hope you are paid. I am sure Cascade is silently and humbly begging your patience in a matter which it does not wish to do so. If the owner is honest he is in just as much anguish about not being able to pay you as you are at not getting your money. To Cascade I hope you are able to right the people wronged and set everything in order I am sure I am not the only one hoping for this. Last thing we need now is for a good book to go bad. If I have to err I would rather it be for believing in someone when I shouldnt have rather than not believing in someone when I should have.

[ZZ CREAM]

Great first post Dethaniel! Welcome Aboard Sir!

[The General]

Welcome Dethaniel.

Also, pioneer, what is it exactly you want to know from me?

Thanks

[pioneer]

General,
See my post #71, Pokerking's response to my post in his post #72, and then my post #81 which quotes his post #72. I have no idea what is going on, but I defended you and the Shrink and EOG against Pokerking's claims concerning the mediation of the dispute between Lenny(Cascade) and Pokerking. I don't know exactly what I want to know from you, how about the truth?

[jeffksu]

so...are ken, lenny and pokerking still on the the three way call....come on who's bullshitting who here.....if a book is slow paying people for two stiffs from players ...then what the fuck has lenny been doing with the profits from previous years....cascade something here is not true...i smell a fish in the stew and the book is looking foolish...bringing it up on a sports forum, like this...pokerking doesn't look like he is running from this ..so i say that something is not right with the book...ken, lenny, and pokerking hang up the phones and keep this drama updated...and lenny...if you owe some players...for fuck sakes...pay them...