Cascade Responds...

[THE SHRINK]

Originally Posted by Dethaniel

Excuse me for choosing to no longer lurk but rather post an opinion on what seems to be an ongoing dispute between; those who are owed money, those who are trying to explain why they are currently not able to pay, those who would simply like to bash on someone, those with what everyone loves to call "an agenda" who may also classify as "shills" (be it for better or worse) and those who are either supporting the people who are owed or the people who are trying to pay. Oh yeah and those simply hanging out for the show...

In order to simplify things it would be wise to break it down to basics. The issue at hand is someone being owed money by someone who is currently for x or y reason not able to pay.

It would be wise to reason at this point and see what facts we can find for both arguments the two main ones being A. Are people being ripped off intentionally with a malicious intent to steal their funds or B. Is there a shortage of cash flow at the moment not allowing people to be paid in a timely manner?

Let us examine the facts. What facts do we have to support that cascade is in any way trying to steal or withold payments from players? Have they shown this behavior in the past? Does this behavior fall in line with what up until now has been the business model of the company? Do people in the industry who know the owner well honestly believe that this is what is going on?

on to question B. Shortage of cash flow... definately and I do not even think this is to be questioned. If the money was there it would be paid. There is no reason not to pay your players.

So where does this leave us? With players owed money by a book that at the moment is unable to pay. Why? Honestly you could probably count on one hand the people who truly know. Is it money stuck in processors? Money lost in Neteller? People not paying what they are owed? Bad book making? Bad business management? Or simply the bad luck of having all the aforementioned crop up at once or none of them at all? Who knows certainly not I and probably not most of you either.

What I do know is that it is not a good time for the industry as a whole. Uncle Sam has eagerly yanked our pants down and has no intention of using vaseline. (If we are lucky he might use a bit of spit, doubt it though). Moving money is a bitch right now... So in this time of hardship should we A. Show solidarity and support, patience and understanding or B. Bicker and bitch like children while we are slowly made obsolete? Or maybe not... maybe the future is not so grim maybe this will be legalized and regulated like it should be and converted into what it is for many of us... having a bit of money on the game while we have some beers with the guys and in the words of BJ "sweating the game, not the...."

I agree that in an ideal situation you should be able to send money and withdraw as you like. What are plausible reasons for not being able to? A. The book itself B. the people who manage money for the book i.e. processors, e-wallets, Banks placing restrictions on doing so or C. lack of funds or lack of accessible funds i.e. anything that is worth something but is not liquid.

I would guess cascade is suffering from B. and C. The only fact I have for saying they probably will pay is to base this on their history and track record. Should we go back in time one year I do not think there would be one person here to say Cascade was a bad book or put them in the same sentence as Royal, BetUs and all the usual ones we love to point out as an example of how not to run a book. I believe what we have is more a case of a book falling on hard times and the vultures trying to close in. Well vultures good luck and for sure have a go at it if that is your nature.

The character of a man is based on actions. An honest man will pay all his debts however long it takes and at whatever personal cost. He does this because he knows that money does not make the man. Actions, principles, morals that which cannot be bought, sold, or traded do.

In my experience the honest bookmakers out there are few and far between. Times of trouble are what will measure them. I am sure we have all learnt at one time or another that everyone is your friend during the good times. So let us see what goes on if Cascade is an honest book it will pay everything it owes no matter the time or cost. Reputation has no price. In the future we will look back and either say "yeah they were a stiff book who had us tricked for 10 years before we caught on to their scam" or "Yeah Cascade is a solid book that even under turbulent times and heavy opposition did all it could to get people paid." Time will tell truth is none of us know right now.

That it may be unwise to play there now... it is up to you to decide what level of personal risk you are willing to take. There is no such thing as a completely solid book. Anyone who says otherwise is simply believing their own lies. How long have we been hearing that this is they year Royal takes it all and runs? How many thought that what happened to BOS would happen? The basis for the use of any book is built on trust through the test of time. Cascade may or may not have passed this for some people this is after all a personal matter.

To all people who are owed money I hope you are paid. I am sure Cascade is silently and humbly begging your patience in a matter which it does not wish to do so. If the owner is honest he is in just as much anguish about not being able to pay you as you are at not getting your money. To Cascade I hope you are able to right the people wronged and set everything in order I am sure I am not the only one hoping for this. Last thing we need now is for a good book to go bad. If I have to err I would rather it be for believing in someone when I shouldnt have rather than not believing in someone when I should have.

This is the strongest first post by a newbie that I have ever seen in this industry...

Welcome to EOG...

[Bucky]

Great Post - Dethaniel - you know what's going on! Now - how do we fix it?

My theory, is the book just needs to reduce everybody to entertainment money limits - whatever it takes to pay peple if they win. Cap - $250 a week - $50 limits - anything. But, to let people play when they know they cannot possibly pay them if they win is no good.

[pokerking]

Just to set the record straight I did have a 3-way call with Lenny and the Shrink and Lenny refused to mediate just like he always has. The fact is that Lenny stole 6 figures from me. I warned people about Lenny stiffing me and now he's stiffing everyone.

[detroitdennis]

pokerking, does clip owe money to cascade?

[sharp gambler]

Hey shrink..got a question for you. You started this thread. Pokerking has said he was on a 3-way convo and you were involved. Set the record straight since you started this...........Does cascade owe this guy the money or what? Seems this guy is willing to cooperate too settle this dispute. Stop worrying about great 1st time posters and let your posters know the facts. You heard them...pokerking seems to feel your on his side. Let's hear it...or take down the cascade link. I am sure when things get cleared up at cascade posters would welcome them back. As for now.......it seems a book that blames credit guys for his problems on the post up end is flat out stealing. Not to mention the fact I am sure other book that deal credit have guys go bad all the time and I don't see them using that as an excuse. Shrink...if you go bad..will the general tell everyone he cant pay his bills cause you owe him money? I just do not understand the logic behind the 1st post in this thread. Cascade might as well just go out of business if they are going to use an excuse like that.

[slash]

Great post Dethaniel. Sounds like Pat McIrish bs. He also uses one page to say something that could be done in one line.

And btw, no books lost a single dollar when NETeller closed for Americans. Common misunderstanding it seems.

[teazeman]

Originally Posted by sharp gambler

Hey shrink..got a question for you. You started this thread. Pokerking has said he was on a 3-way convo and you were involved. Set the record straight since you started this...........Does cascade owe this guy the money or what? Seems this guy is willing to cooperate too settle this dispute. Stop worrying about great 1st time posters and let your posters know the facts. You heard them...pokerking seems to feel your on his side. Let's hear it...or take down the cascade link. I am sure when things get cleared up at cascade posters would welcome them back. As for now.......it seems a book that blames credit guys for his problems on the post up end is flat out stealing.

[jeffksu]

shrink are u going to finish this thread...you started it by crying wolf for the book cascade...now pokerking has come on board and told u to shove it up your ass...it looks as though you and lenny from cascade are now the cowards....shrink don't come in here crying for the book ..pokerking is not running away..man up and tell us what is going on...and we wonder why this offshore is going to hell in a handbasket....shrink it's getting to the point that you and friends like lenny are giving the black eye..not trying to help out...shrink, man up or stfu...this kind of shit makes me fucking sick...you drama king or queen..which ever shoe fits ..wear it ...you and lenny both...sometimes people like you and lenny should be

[sharp gambler]

Originally Posted by jeffksu

shrink are u going to finish this thread...you started it by crying wolf for the book cascade...now pokerking has come on board and told u to shove it up your ass...it looks as though you and lenny from cascade are now the cowards....shrink don't come in here crying for the book ..pokerking is not running away..man up and tell us what is going on...and we wonder why this offshore is going to hell in a handbasket....shrink it's getting to the point that you and friends like lenny are giving the black eye..not trying to help out...shrink, man up or stfu...this kind of shit makes me fucking sick...you drama king or queen..which ever shoe fits ..wear it ...you and lenny both...sometimes people like you and lenny should be

Great post. But if you don't know it already...Shrink doesn't give a shit. He will come in this thread n a few days and say he was away..or some shit..His word is worth as much as GW BUSH.

[world traveler]

....and you guys wonder why uncle sam has a hardon to shut down offshore gambling. Year in and year out we deal with this same crap, just different book and 9 x out of 10 the same result happens, players loose money and the book disappear into some i-net black hole along with the ones responsible. Thats why people react the weay they do....their tired of being treated like fools.
Dethaniel you act like this is unheard of and never happened before. Do you have any idea how many times the words "stand up guy....deep pockets...hes honest give him a chance" have been said about book owners only to have the money disappear along with that stand up guy with deep pockets? Around these parts the assumption is when a book cries trouble everyone will be stiffed, the exception is the players get paid after hearing the warning. For a first time poster you sure know a whole lot about past history but you still have alot to learn.
I am 100% all for having the us govt regulate the shit out of this business. I would rather any day of the week place my bets on a vegas casino web site, have my winnings immediately taxed and all that crap than risk my cash offshore.

[pioneer]

Originally Posted by pioneer

Well, Shrink?
And the General posted 78 mins after this post by PK yet he never mentioned it. Maybe PK is telling the truth?

We're at 3 days now and still no response from the Shrink and/or General. But it looks like more people, (see JeffKSU's post) other than myself now are starting to see the real Shrink/General.

[IDENTITY]

bottom line:

POKERKING SAYS CASCADE STIFFED HIM OUT OF MID 5 FIGURES.

POKERKING SAYS LENNY WONT MEDIATE.


SHRINK/GENERAL - please respond as to whether these are real or not. thanks.

[Dethaniel]

So it seems a few questions have come up and I would like to add my own. First an observation and you may take this as you wish. I am a bit perplexed as to the reason and the intentionality with which this thread was initially created. I understand that Cascade may or may not in fact be somehow suffering because of these two people who may or may not owe them money. What I do not see is how this either justifies or alleviates the problem.

In the end I think we can all agree that people need to get paid and I hope that we all want to see them get paid. Any dispute between PK and CPJ are seperate issues and do not justify the slow pays. The case may be that if true they are in some way hurting the cash flow but I honestly do not know so do not wish to say anything either way. We have heard from PK would be nice to hear from the other party involved. There are a few reasons I could guess for not answering

A. worst case scenario it is true and PK is owed money in which case I hope the correct thing is done and he is paid. If he is owed let him be paid and any wrong done be corrected. right? In the end only the parties involved know what truly happening the rest of us are out here speculating on what we have observed.

B. Cascade wishes to avoid resolving this publicly knowing that these forums as nice and free as they are, contain people who are here for a reason... mainly money and if a few people have to be taken down on the way to their making money so be it... survival of the fittest no holds barred (even those cheap under the belt shots). Such is the price we pay for being free here.

C. Cascade is more concerned about doing what it must to pay people out than debating on this forums and justifying the integrity of its actions. It holds its course knowing that it is trying to do the correct thing and pay everyone out, meaning it will have to accept the temporary humiliation of being publicly bashed upon until such a time as it has cleared its name of claims and wrongdoings. I like this option and hope it is what is happening.

Unfortunately I am not a bookmaker and as such cannot say what actions would be appropriate for the book to take under these circumstances. The other item being as I stated before I do not know whether these slow pays are due to a complete lack of funds or the inability to access already gained funds. If it is a complete lack of funds then the most honest thing to do would be to lower limits. On the other hand if you know you have the money and are simply waiting to be able to access it or are liquidating personal or company assets in order to cover payments then it is not necessarily justified seeing as the money will be available and you know everyone can and will be paid.

Slash I did not know the exact facts about Neteller. Thank you for enlightening me. What I do know is that a lot of books used it to move money. I would guess that once it was no longer usable as a payment method all the money which was moved through there needed to be moved in other manners. I would say all were affected the difference being the degree to which each book was affected. Some more than others. Either way there was a moment in which most books needed to figure out how to move everything that was formerly neteller money in other manners. At a time when mistrust and fear was greatest between the industry and the processors it may have been hard to find an appropriate processor to handle this seeing as they can sometimes be a bit treacherous. Some have recovered from this more gracefully from the Neteller situation than others.

I apologize if my words ring of Pat (Who's that?) {not to be taken literally just a joke from SNL} If you can honestly communicate all I did in one sentence then you have an amazing ability. I am sorry if I fall short of your expectation, unfortunately I have a tendency to explain my ideas so as to avoid having them taken at face value and instead base them on substance. If I am wrong, and I often am, then I will admit it in an attempt to better myself. In my defense I would say that at least I try to found my words with logic and reason rather than passion and emotion.

I have always tried to understand the bravado with which people attack each other on the forums. Not saying that we should avoid doing it here and instead do it in public and kill each other I think there is enough of that in the world as it is. But I am at a loss of how personal attacks will ever help any situation. It creates defensivness in parties and creates one more conflict where there is already conflict to be solved. i.e. Dont turn off a fire by throwing more wood on it unless you have no concern for the fire and merely wish to watch things burn. Also why would someone use such strong words and display such strong emotion in regards to drama and then do it in such a dramatic way?

I am curious as to how many people on this forum do care. I mean apart from the manner in which this can create some sort of personal gain. I almost wish there were more people here who were in it for the sport and for the gamble. We are all gamblers here right? or did I sign up at the wrong forum?

[Mr Fury]

I'm gonna throw in a opinion or two in this soap opera.
First, people are busting Shrinks balls in this thread like
they think he has the power to make Lenny(Cascade)
cough up the money. He can't do much more than it
looks like he already has done. All he can do is ask to
mediate the situation. I mean he could ask Lenny to
pay up, and I am sure Lenny would say, SURE BUDDY
ANYTHING YOU SAY.
Now I don't know Lenny, but I do know that I hear things
about him here on the streets of Georgia. I have heard
about people here trying to screw him and I have heard
about him screwing over others. No doubt, there is some
truth in both those rumors.
Summing up, for those that want to deal with Cascade,
you should already be aware that they have had and do have
troubles. But just like the Delta Airlines and all the other
companies in this world that have gone chapter 7 etc.,
you see people still lining up to do business with them. It is
a personal choice. But don't go blaming or busting on a
third party for two other peoples issues and troubles.

[Dethaniel]

I hope this is the 1 time of the the 10 in which this does not happen. I guess the question is... are we hoping for their end or hoping they pull through? A regulated industry is the ideal, but we are still far from this. There is a difference in character between those who will run from their debts and those who will do what they can to pay them. My hope is that we are dealing with the latter and not the former.

[ASKMEA?]

We are all gamblers here right? or did I sign up at the wrong forum?

WRONG FORUM, MOSTLY JUST BONUS WHORES OR SCALPERS AROUND HERE, HENCE ALL THE BITCHING AND MOANING.........

[Mr Fury]

Originally Posted by ASKMEA?

We are all gamblers here right? or did I sign up at the wrong forum?

WRONG FORUM, MOSTLY JUST BONUS WHORES OR SCALPERS AROUND HERE, HENCE ALL THE BITCHING AND MOANING.........

Look in the mirror. Every post I read from you is a bitch post. Add something
positive.

[Richard@Cascade]

Shrink has no blame here at all. He is simply reporting something that was brought to his attention. I am sure you would not prefer that he holds this information from you. This is not an excuse thread. The two items are B2B, and the only way to get a response from those involved.

[ASKMEA?]

Originally Posted by Mr Fury

Look in the mirror. Every post I read from you is a bitch post. Add something
positive.

Touched a nerve hey? Sorry I wasnt trying to single you out.

[Mr Fury]

Originally Posted by ASKMEA?

Sorry I wasnt trying to single you out.

"Touched a nerve hey? "
No you didn't. I was just being honest with you.
Not trying to bust your balls just saying you are adding
to the bitching. My post was a wake up and realize that
Shrink can't make Lenny do a damn thing. Some people
post as if they think forum owners can force books to
do something.

[ASKMEA?]

Oh no, Hell I know Shrink has no say one way or the other, he is only in this for the quid, hell we all should understand that by now.

Best of luck........

[janus]

Originally Posted by ASKMEA?

We are all gamblers here right? or did I sign up at the wrong forum?

WRONG FORUM, MOSTLY JUST BONUS WHORES OR SCALPERS AROUND HERE, HENCE ALL THE BITCHING AND MOANING...............

i'm no gambler, i'm a bonus whore and scalper. if you want a forum free of my kind, yeah -- you're in the wrong fucking place. does that answer your question?

[ASKMEA?]

Yeah Janus they may not want your biz. But they are other place that may.

Best of luck

[Bucky]

Post up players have no clout and are looked at like some insignicant mosquito on a 10,000 pound elephant's butt.

But we are pawns in the game. Something funky is going on here and this forum must be a way to send some kind of coded, inuendo type message to somebody.

The confidence that the post up players wil not form a posse and unite to beat down doors for PokerKing and ClipJoint's identity is a little cocky. I have seen stiffed postupplayers make disgruntled postal workers look like Sunday school teachers.

On the other hand agents being stiffed by Cascade would be on Lenny's (or Shrinks or anybody that can ID them) doorstep saying WTF! Give me Clip Joint and Poker King or I will have your teeth knocked in. But, agents can only go so far with pressure as they are on thin ice to begin with and some money is not worth collecting because of the repercussions and revenge that could happen down the road. But, I cannot even fathom the book giving this excuse to a good size agent.

Actually, I cannot fathom why two agents would be called out unless they are not real or can take the heat and then some. Still finding any of this as very hard to believe.

But BS is BS and sooner or later this kind of thing is going to explode. Personally, I would not want to know who Pokerking and ClipJoint are and have the posse know that I know their names. And actually, if I was Pokerking or ClipJoint I would have exploded at this reporting of my identity and the blame being placed on me and putting my life at risk.

[ASKMEA?]

Life at risk......LOL No in this day and age......

[Richard@Cascade]

I am sure that Pokerking and Clipjoint are not their real names. No real names have been brought up here. There is no posse.
Clipjoint was the main man at dimeplayer who layed off heavy action here, then disappeared and disconnected his phone.

As for pokerking, if Ken said he was in the wrong, would he still pay?

Well Pokerking, will you? Here in front of your peers? If you will, you can pay Ken the significant amount and Ken can distribute it as he sees fit. That is if he believes you to be in the wrong.

[ASKMEA?]

Posse on Broadway maYBE...........lol

[sharp gambler]

Someone lock this thread. It's meaningless and is not helping anyone. This guy richard is a puppet. Shrink won't respond cause he has he hands in someone's pocket and general is on his knees. Close the thread because none of these guys has ever told the truth in there lives. Why start now. Take care and bet with your head...not over it.

1-800-gambler

[Bucky]

Well, Richard that sheds a little light. Clip Joint and Dime Player stiffed Cascade and they did it for mid six figures? Kind of an Aces gold - Charlie stiff - but man that is a lot to get stiffed for - what kind of settle did the guy have? - But, the way it is turning out - the post up players are getting stiffed by Dime Player and Clip Joint.

Askmea - sooner or later someone is going to get really pissed off!


And Pokerking? How do you manage to have an argument about 6 figures? Commission? Can't be a grading problme - LOL

[ASKMEA?]

Yeah you may be right

[greivin]

hello all, my name is greivin, the public relations man for cascade and i have been given the dubious job of setting the record straight for cascade.
i will do my best to answer all questions, and if i dont have an answer, that that will be my answer, that i dont have one.
anyone can confirm w/ shrink that i have been given full authority to speak on behalf of cascade.
let me begin by saying that all cascade accounts will be paid in full. no one at cascade is blaming the current situation on a handful of people that have chosen to not do the right thing not fulfill their obligations to cacade. we at cascade are big boys, and have been in the industry for nearly 20 years, booking and paying both sharp and recreational players on demand.
let me reiterate, so as to be perfectly clear. industry pressures that have no business in public forums are the reason payouts are not currently being made at cascade, not because many people owe a great deal of $ to cascade. all cascade accounts will be settled in full, regardless if these people do the right thing or not.
the reason a couple people were singled out was to prevent this unfortunate situation from happening to others.
as many already know, any account holder may call cascade at any time and speak directly with the boss regarding their account at cascade. in many cases, the boss has given his cell phone # to clients to make communication easier.
ok, have at it. lets see all those comments and questions. lets not lock the thread and keep the communication flowing.

[ASKMEA?]

Rocky that you?

[janus]

Originally Posted by greivin

industry pressures that have no business in public forums

say again?

[Inside Guy]

Is RH from Dimeplayer still associated with Legendz? If so, then CASCADE should go to Luke for the money owed by RH.

I have met RH before and the guy is scum.

[Ball Rash]

comedy