2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas
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  1. #1
    Just Drawn This Way Squarepants's Avatar
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    Default 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Will start this offseason-long thread with some news.

    According to reliable tweets, including by Jay Kornegay, the SuperContest will be adding a "SuperContest Gold" competition this year with a $5K entry fee and winner takes all. The "regular" SuperContest still will have the $1500 entry fee, etc.

    Don't have a link yet to something with detail -- uh, like whether all means all or all less a rake -- but will follow up when I do.
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Overall, I'll be tracking all the offseason Vegas football handicapping news in the one thread this year -- rather than running threads specific to each contest. That's the way the discussion in the threads has tended to run, i.e., discussing all contests more or less indiscriminately in whichever thread has the most recent posts. So one big thread works best.

    Covering handicapping contests -- NFL and college -- not the "straight up" primarily (but not necessarily) locals contests where players just pick games without spreads.

    And I'll periodically summarize what's available as the page rolls over in the thread.

    I'm not a proxy and I'm not selling anything, so this is not intended to serve as an ad thread. If I copy tweets with news from an advertising source like a proxy, I'll try and edit out any embedded ad material. But I will copy and paste the rest of the tweet to properly identify the source, which is not intended as an endorsement.
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    These tweets & essentially retweets or repackages thereof is all I've find so far on the new SuperContest twist:


    VSiN‏ @VSiNLive 15h15 hours ago

    Westgate's @JayKornegay tells @brentmusburger: A new angle for SuperContest: SuperContest "Gold"--entry fee of $5K and winner take all.


    Jay Kornegay‏ @JayKornegay 15h15 hours ago

    Jay Kornegay Retweeted VSiN
    #SuperContestGold is a $5K winner take all. The regular #SuperContest remains $1,500 to enter.
    Last edited by Squarepants; 06-02-17 at 08:39 AM. Reason: I have complete editorial license, scary I know . . .
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    OK, here's some hard copy from this VSiN piece:

    https://www.vsin.com/gold-medal-even...-supercontest/

    "Sports Betting Industry: Huge news! Jay Kornegay of the Westgate announces “SuperContest Gold” on “My Guys in the Desert” with Brent Musburger

    Sports bettors know all about the annual pro football handicapping “SuperContest” held annually by the Westgate. Thursday, Vice President of Race and Sports Operations at the Westgate Las Vegas SuperBook Jay Kornegay announced the creation of a new, separate attraction.

    “Super Contest Gold” will be a “winner take all” event with a $5,000 entry fee (compared to the $1,500 entry fee for the “Super Contest,” known for decades as “the Hilton Contest”). Entries will be limited to one per person. And the end of the season, best record gets all the money!
    Again, this is a separate contest. You can enter both if you wish, but you can only have one entry in the $5,000 winner-take-all event.

    . . . .


    This is very likely to be a popular contest for professional wagerers. They can afford the entry fee, and will see themselves as plus-EV (expected value). The more recreational players enter, the more “sharps” will see that as dead money improving their “pot odds.” But recreational players have scored some successes in the Super Contest, and one could certainly get hot here.

    . . . ."

    Well, take the exuberant spin for what it's worth. Still want to know specifically whether all (their bold emphasis) means actually all with no rake.

    Looking like a potentially nice tweak, so far, though.

    There's a link to a clip of that part of the show in the article, but my link isn't spinning up a working video or audio file.
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    "In other news," I thought I had heard on the radio in the car a while back that they were taking early registrations for the Golden Nugget Friday Football Showdown as early as back during March Madness, as an event cross-promotional type thing.

    But I don't see anything other than archived as-of-the-end-of-2016 material on the LV Sportsline website and nothing on GN's R&S page.

    https://www.thelasvegassportsline.com/friday-contest

    http://www.goldennugget.com/lasvegas...sportsbook.asp

    It is my understanding that they will be doing some more tweaks this year, including eliminating the use of college totals. As I understand it, they felt that they were getting way too much stale lines play with the CFB totals.

    Be interesting to see if (a) the new SuperContest Gold 5K contest within a contest peels off any high-end money from the GN contest; and (b) whether with Matt Youmans on VSiN they'll be able to get more national exposure to bring in more entries to the GN/LV Sportsline contest.

    Always nice when the books are creating more contest options and varied offerings.
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Oh, and they start taking SuperContest (and I imagine SuperContest Gold) signups on Saturday, July 1, now less than a month away.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Brilliant idea.

    A contest within a contest.

    SuperContest Gold is a winner.

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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Ghost accounts will be in full force for the 5k

    Thrilling
    ​STAY FOCUSED

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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Good bit of news in this RJ piece, in addition to the foregoing SuperContest Gold news:

    https://www.reviewjournal.com/sports...pping-contest/

    -- they're adding 15K bonus prizes for the leader(s) after 4 and 8 weeks in addition to the bonus for the mini-contest winner at the end, while scrapping the bonus for hitting 67%, which typically went to folks who already were cashing substantially

    -- they'll be awarding Super Bowl-style rings to the SuperContest and SuperContest Gold winners.

    -- "The Westgate also is working on making the contests accessible via mobile betting app, but Kornegay said that option might not be available until 2018."

    I like both of the additional new tweaks.

    The new bonuses will add excitement to the earlier stages of the contest.

    And I've been advocating for rings for a while, to make it similar to winning a WSOP bracelet. One of those "long after the money all has been spent" sort of things. Should add to the cachet of winning the now two, dual contests.

    Throw in a lifetime VIP SuperBook parking pass for the winners and they'll just about have it right.
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Haven't seen any mention anywhere yet as to dates in August for their SuperContest Weekend that they've run over the past few years.

    They're usually talking it up early, especially so that out-of-towners can make reservations. May have mentioned it on that VSiN clip that I can't get anything on.

    Or the bean counters may have nixed it.

    Wouldn't be the end of the world (I don't listen to the tout seminars), but I do enjoy getting to see folks brought together in one place, which is a rarity these days. John's Stardust Invitational and follow on events used to be a weekly gathering place during football season, but there hasn't been anything like that lately.
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    And no sooner does the wheel squeak than we get some word on the SuperContest Weekend, tentatively set for the August 17-19 weekend.

    This is Vegas Matty's writeup on all the new developments, including the tentative weekend dates, on his proxy service website.

    As I say, I'm not selling anything or advertising for anyone. But he did take the time to do a good writeup on all of the new tweaks as well as the standard prior features of the contest (for those new to the SuperContest). So I'll just provide the link:

    http://www.footballcontest.com/supercontest/
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  12. #12

    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kelly View Post
    Brilliant idea.

    A contest within a contest.

    SuperContest Gold is a winner.
    I like the idea as well, except for the "winner take all" feature.

    This is coming from me a guy who loves a top heavy top leaderboard prize pool but in a field of probably 50ish entries, I would be quite disappointed to achieve
    58% better 49 out of 50 and not get a penny, because one evil knievel goes crazy one year with a number he will never do ever again, something like 61%-64%.
    I would prepare a top heavy 1st place prize with a solid 2nd and 3rd place return on investment that is worth my 4-5 months of work.

    Will be interesting to see how the marketplace feels about this startup, as I love how our investment dollar will help mold/change rules. I believe others will have
    the same concern as I do. Should be interesting to monitor.

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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    I already have a side-bet on the number of entries in the 5K contest.
    I took UN 125. 5K and winner take-all? Lots of players hate top heavy tourneys
    so I think it will be a no go for many that can afford it otherwise.

    The whole proxy thing will hopefully be over with soon (online submission is
    not far away) but I can see where some of the proxies will think they can charge
    500 or so for the 5K contest.

    Yes, the Nugget contest will no longer have college totals. Too many complaints
    regarding the line moves. It's still a good contest and my favorite format.

  14. #14

    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo View Post
    I already have a side-bet on the number of entries in the 5K contest.
    I took UN 125. 5K and winner take-all? Lots of players hate top heavy tourneys
    so I think it will be a no go for many that can afford it otherwise.

    The whole proxy thing will hopefully be over with soon (online submission is
    not far away) but I can see where some of the proxies will think they can charge
    500 or so for the 5K contest.

    Yes, the Nugget contest will no longer have college totals. Too many complaints
    regarding the line moves. It's still a good contest and my favorite format.
    I like your side bet position
    Mos Def gonna see action, as I would be interested in if
    there were 3 payout positions.
    With winner take all, it's a no for me.

  15. #15

    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo View Post
    I already have a side-bet on the number of entries in the 5K contest.
    I took UN 125. 5K and winner take-all? Lots of players hate top heavy tourneys
    so I think it will be a no go for many that can afford it otherwise.

    The whole proxy thing will hopefully be over with soon (online submission is
    not far away) but I can see where some of the proxies will think they can charge
    500 or so for the 5K contest.

    Yes, the Nugget contest will no longer have college totals. Too many complaints
    regarding the line moves. It's still a good contest and my favorite format.
    Depending on the WG rake with the 5k contest, I'm not sure GN's contest will survive.

    Every contest using stale lines should use gaps to reduce some of the advantage and increase the amount of actual handicapping. One point for all sides. One point for NFL totals. It's unfortunate, but I agree with dropping college totals because the numbers move too much.

    Examples:

    Raiders -4.5 Eagles +3.5

    Raiders OV 47.5 UN 46.5

    Ohio OV 45.5 UN 43.5

  16. #16

    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by raininthrees View Post
    I like your side bet position
    Mos Def gonna see action, as I would be interested in if
    there were 3 payout positions.
    With winner take all, it's a no for me.
    With the selection format they're using for the 5k contest, the payouts should be determined after the number of entries is known.

    Example:

    Less than 40 entries...winner takes it all or maybe 80-20 split.

    41-60...winner 70%, 2nd 30%

    61-80...winner 65%, 2nd 25%, 3rd 10%

    81-100...winner 60%, 2nd 20%, 3rd 12%, 4th 8%

  17. #17

    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Make a 3 hr submission period on friday night. That would limit the cherry pickers of stale lines.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by railbird View Post
    Make a 3 hr submission period on friday night. That would limit the cherry pickers of stale lines.
    Not a bad idea, Rail.

    That sort of thing would work better logistically, though, once they've gone over to the mobile app. Right now, even with four kiosk windows, Friday nights can be functionally packed, with the large proxy outfits commandeering a window or two putting in entries.

    And even on Saturday AM when there's less traffic (most proxies put picks in on Friday night and/or charge extra to delay it to the next morning), it can be hard to get a free kiosk at times. That's especially because the book is not monitoring what's going on and is allowing people to just take up a kiosk and stand there -- not putting in entries -- but deciding what they want to pick and/or watching for line movement. It's freakin' irritating and I've complained to the book about it and will complain again this year -- and elsewhere if I miss getting picks in because of it.

    So, logistically, I think that sort of idea works best once they have the contest on the mobile app, so there's no problem taking a flood of entries all at once.

    They then can have that short entry window on either Friday night or Saturday morning.

    Another wrinkle is the Thursday night game, and they currently require that all your picks go in then if you use that game. So, you're either going to have to parse that game out separately -- which complicates your procedures and computer programming of the setup -- or have two windows of time (Thur and Fri/Sat) with different line values for the five games, which complicates things a good bit in terms of grading winning picks.

    Frankly, I'd rather have the short Friday or Saturday window on a mobile app and don't use the Thursday night game at all to keep it simple (which other contests have done). Although I get the counterargument based upon there possibly being compelling value on a Thursday night game, I'm one of those that usually skips the Thursday night game anyway.
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Brent Musburger's VSiN piece on the SuperContest:

    https://www.vsin.com/westgate-footba...gold-standard/

    Notable points:

    --Jay Kornegay confirmed that players can group together on the 5K Gold entries, so long as only one player/SS# is fronting for the group.

    --"Whether the Westgate phone app may be used for the contests is still up in the air."

    --Brent "himself" will enter the SuperContest and cover the contest weekly during the season, bringing even more high profile notoriety to the contest.
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    For comparison – re: the single payout prize “structure” for the SuperContest Gold contest within a contest – I’ve sort forth below the prize structure for other fairly recent high end handicapping contests.

    I culled the specifics of these contests that I remembered more generally from Dave Tuley’s archived material on viewfromvegas.com. VFV provides the best multi-year institutional memory in town that I know of for comprehensive Las Vegas handicapping contest information.

    Cantor 2011, one year only

    10K per entry; two entries max

    1st 50%
    2nd 20%
    3rd 15%
    4th 20%
    5th 05%

    http://forums.viewfromvegas.com/user...aspx?id=298755

    Cantor 2010, one year only in this configuration


    100K per entry; one entry max

    1st 70%
    2nd 20%
    3rd 10%

    South Point 2010 and for several years before

    2500 per entry; two entries max
    Guaranteed minimum $250 prize pool (a Michael Gaughan joint, of course)

    1st 40%
    2nd 30%
    3rd 20%
    4th 10%

    http://forums.viewfromvegas.com/user...aspx?id=250557

    There also was an earlier Golden Nugget contest in the early to mid 2000's with a 5K buy in. But I don’t recall the specifics of that contest on the fly as to any entry number limits, prize structure, etc. I may have an original promotion sheet somewhere in a file in a box here, but I’m not going to dig for that today.

    I liked that South Point contest, including that the selections did not have to go in until 2PM PT on Saturday, after the SuperContest selection deadline. If I’m ever back at the top of the leader board in the SuperContest again, I don’t want to have to be put in a situation of being concerned about providing intelligence as to my SuperContest plays in a smaller payout contest before the SuperContest selection deadline.

    I also liked the top-heavy prize structure in the South Point contest, and I argued against calls to spread it out. Personally, I’m in these contests for a low-cost potentially substantial bankroll boost that I thereafter can apply at the windows, not for grind-it-out money. There’s plenty of grind-it-out opportunities around outside of contests.

    But a single prize as in this new SuperContest Gold contest? That undeniably is a steep hill. As much as I liked the South Point structure, it was tough getting into the top four spots even competing with just 70 or 80 entries.
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    That was a guaranteed minimum $250K prize pool on the old South Point contest. As I say, it's a Michael Gaughan joint, so they did it right.
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Yep, and the math/proofreading skills are just razor sharp this morning.

    Cantor 2011, one year only

    10K per entry; two entries max

    1st 50%
    2nd 20%
    3rd 15%
    4th 10%
    5th 05%
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    I like the winner take all format especially when you consider that the $1500 contest
    is still there and that they use the exact same lines. If you constructed a pay scale for the
    5K contest then what would be the point other than playing for a bigger entry fee?
    It would be the same contest. The winner-take-all format is what sets it apart, not
    the amount of the entry fee.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Good point, Voodoo, of course, on the single prize for the SuperContest Gold.

    And it’s all also very Highlander-esque, “in the end, there can be only one.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Squarepants View Post
    . . . . "The Westgate also is working on making the contests accessible via mobile betting app, but Kornegay said that option might not be available until 2018." . . . .
    Quote Originally Posted by Squarepants View Post
    . . . . "Whether the Westgate phone app may be used for the contests is still up in the air." . . . .
    These references to “via mobile betting app” and in particular to “the Westgate phone app” have me wondering whether they would be using an app that would be subject to the same in-state-only restriction that necessarily is applicable to all sports betting apps in Nevada.

    As a local, I certainly wouldn’t mind the convenience. And no more need for a “Frogger Run” to the book trying to avoid zombie drivers and ticket-writing cops to make it to the book in time if I’ve pushed it up against the Saturday morning deadline.

    But – if part of the book’s objective is to expand the number of entries – an in-state-only app of course won’t have near as much of an effect in that regard as an app that can be used anywhere.

    Maybe that’s what they’re thinking of, an entirely separate contest-only app that also can be used outside Nevada. (Somewhat analogous to how Wynn has one app for sports betting and another separate app for race betting, in the sense that there doesn’t have to be just one app for all purposes.)

    But the scant discussion in the reporting quoted above doesn’t spell all that out (and I haven’t been able to pull up the VsiN clip where Jay Kornegay was interviewed on air).
    Last edited by Squarepants; 06-05-17 at 10:01 AM. Reason: Had a really, really good time at LSU back in the '80's
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    The way I understand it is that the app being used to submit picks sort of hits a
    gray area. Because the entry was paid for preseason, so in effect the bet was made at the
    time of sign-up, no new bet is being made when you put picks in. Of course it just depends the
    way you look at it but the making of a bet outside state lines is always a concern of the state.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Yep, that would be the legal rationale for allowing it, as they're already allowing contest selections to be made across state lines via proxies as it is. So they can't be regarding that as betting across state lines as it stands now.

    Being the more a PC rather than smart phone person that I am, I always had assumed when they were talking about this over the past year or so that they were talking about allowing people to put picks in online on their computer rather than specifically through a phone app (which of course is just a software application on a small handheld computer).

    From the technology perspective, which is not my area, it would seem that they would need a contest-specific mobile app that wasn't set up to work only in state. Or it's not going to make any difference for the out-of-staters. Not sure how easy it would be able to instead have the existing mobile betting app use the location feature when someone is actually betting but disable/circumvent it when they are putting in contest selections from out of state.

    Guess the sundry ins and outs of working through all that -- and doing so in a manner that gaming will approve -- is what's holding up the change now possibly two seasons running.
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  27. #27
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Guy stays pretty dialed in on all things Vegas handicapping contest, so if you're interested in the contests -- all of them -- and have Sirius (or can catch the feed off the VSiN.com website):

    VegasMatty‏ @Vegas_Matty 7s7 seconds ago

    VegasMatty Retweeted VSiN
    Excited for my first @VSiNLive appearance talking #SuperContest, #FridayFootballShowdown, #CollegePickem & @FootballContest proxy service

    VegasMatty added,
    VSiN @VSiNLive
    .@MitchMossRadio & @paulyhoward Follow the Money Guests: @mattyoumans247 2:45ET/11:45PT; @Vegas_Matty 3:15ET/12:15PT





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  28. #28

    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    I would like to see more contests. Half times contest. Totals contest, college only, make it multi eventa like wsop

  29. #29

    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Make some 1000 1aa contest. College fantasy sports contest

  30. #30

    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Sucks these lame fantasy leagues dont have for sight for a college fanrasy draft

  31. #31
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    This ESPN article answers my question about whether they will take a rake from the SuperContest Gold pot, with the answer being "no."

    Bit of rebellion by the book against the bean counters, perhaps, as I doubt that the recent 8% regular contest rake idea originated in the book in the first place.

    Anyway, so some good news there.

    Of course, this is the sort of article that Dave Tuley would have been doing for ESPN.com, so that part sucks.

    http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id...5000-entry-fee
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  32. #32

    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    we need 1 here. tax free, token add on, easy competition.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Squarepants View Post
    Yep, that would be the legal rationale for allowing it, as they're already allowing contest selections to be made across state lines via proxies as it is. So they can't be regarding that as betting across state lines as it stands now.

    Being the more a PC rather than smart phone person that I am, I always had assumed when they were talking about this over the past year or so that they were talking about allowing people to put picks in online on their computer rather than specifically through a phone app (which of course is just a software application on a small handheld computer).

    From the technology perspective, which is not my area, it would seem that they would need a contest-specific mobile app that wasn't set up to work only in state. Or it's not going to make any difference for the out-of-staters. Not sure how easy it would be able to instead have the existing mobile betting app use the location feature when someone is actually betting but disable/circumvent it when they are putting in contest selections from out of state.

    Guess the sundry ins and outs of working through all that -- and doing so in a manner that gaming will approve -- is what's holding up the change now possibly two seasons running.

    In this overall vein, Mark Mayer's vignette in this week's Gaming Today stated: "Also next year, if in Nevada, one could phone in selections." I assume that refers to the use of a mobile app rather than an "operators are standing by" actual voice call-in situation.

    The one-paragraph article apparently was summarizing Jay Kornegay's interview on VSiN referenced above, which I never was able to access directly.

    Anyway, again, as a local, being able to put my selections in on a Nevada-only mobile app would be a convenience.

    But it would not have any tendency to increase signups by out-of-staters, who still would need a proxy to enter their selections.
    Never confuse price with value, consensus with wisdom, or conformity with courage.

  34. #34
    Just Drawn This Way Squarepants's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    Well, guess I was dreaming when I thought I heard them say that they were taking signups earlier on the Golden Nugget contest:

    SuperContest Proxy‏ @FootballContest 6m6 minutes ago

    According to @Gollumlv, sign-ups for #FridayFootballShowdown won't start until end of July, so hold your travel plans if you want to enter.


    Gollumlv is the sports book director, Tony Miller.

    As Matty suggests, if you're coming in from out of town to enter multiple contests, it's best to wait until you can do them all in one trip.

    Would probably serve all their interests to instead more or less synchronize their start dates around the SuperContest's July 1.
    Never confuse price with value, consensus with wisdom, or conformity with courage.

  35. #35
    Just Drawn This Way Squarepants's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2017 Football Handicapping Contests in Las Vegas

    SuperContest and SuperContest Gold Rules are now up at this link:

    https://www.westgatedestinations.com...o/supercontest

    I'll follow with some notes after I read over them. But they're out, hot off the virtual presses.
    Never confuse price with value, consensus with wisdom, or conformity with courage.

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