Dwyer and late batch betting
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Thread: Dwyer and late batch betting

  1. #1

    Default Dwyer and late batch betting

    Firenze Fire was 5/1 when the gates opened, but by the time he hit the wire, he was all the way down to 5/2, a massive drop.

    http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com...wyer-wagering/

    Legit or not, the perception is very bad. I would rather wagering were shut off a minute before post. The current system needs major fixes.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Not sure it matters, suppose you bet at the 5 minute mark 5/1 and watch it drop, you going to cancel the wager. Cut it off with 2-3 minutes to post wont stop you either, you going to cancel a bet that might be 3/1 from when you bet the 5/1 shot. To me, it's just the game of para mutual wagering.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by cheapseats View Post
    Not sure it matters, suppose you bet at the 5 minute mark 5/1 and watch it drop, you going to cancel the wager. Cut it off with 2-3 minutes to post wont stop you either, you going to cancel a bet that might be 3/1 from when you bet the 5/1 shot. To me, it's just the game of para mutual wagering.
    It's gotten worse as the Wall Street guys with the computer batch betting have got into the game. There are a couple tracks, I know Oaklawn is one, where they will not accept computer batch betting. But most tracks drool at the idea of additional handle.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    if you want to know what your odds are, all betting needs to close 2 minutes earlier

    and then two minutes after and 10 seconds before race goes of you will see your number

    this is because system is not world class enough to spit in independent shops that take action.

    the bets were made well before post, it just gives conspiracy types ammo

  5. #5

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by raininthrees View Post
    if you want to know what your odds are, all betting needs to close 2 minutes earlier

    and then two minutes after and 10 seconds before race goes of you will see your number

    this is because system is not world class enough to spit in independent shops that take action.

    the bets were made well before post, it just gives conspiracy types ammo
    I think most of us realize the bets are placed before post (seconds, not WELL before post). The problem is the perception is real, real bad. Newbies see this and are turned off right away. The second problem is that the computer groups with the algorithms are playing at an advantage, as they ultimately are the only ones who know what the closing odds will be. If there's a variance, it just fires off bets in the closing moments. I mentioned Oaklawn earlier, and apparently Tampa Bay is the other track who refuses to take that action.

    But ultimately you are right. The tote system is too archaic to handle the wagering in a timely manner.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Valuist View Post
    I think most of us realize the bets are placed before post (seconds, not WELL before post). The problem is the perception is real, real bad. Newbies see this and are turned off right away. The second problem is that the computer groups with the algorithms are playing at an advantage, as they ultimately are the only ones who know what the closing odds will be. If there's a variance, it just fires off bets in the closing moments. I mentioned Oaklawn earlier, and apparently Tampa Bay is the other track who refuses to take that action.

    But ultimately you are right. The tote system is too archaic to handle the wagering in a timely manner.

    There are definitely some terminals in the NorthEast that closes 5 to 8 seconds after the bell. Enough time to see how the speed breaks
    Lick my ice cream and kiss my pinky ring

  7. #7

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Richie fingers would past post 5-7 seconds into qtr horse race

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    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Valuist View Post
    I think most of us realize the bets are placed before post (seconds, not WELL before post). The problem is the perception is real, real bad. Newbies see this and are turned off right away. The second problem is that the computer groups with the algorithms are playing at an advantage, as they ultimately are the only ones who know what the closing odds will be. If there's a variance, it just fires off bets in the closing moments. I mentioned Oaklawn earlier, and apparently Tampa Bay is the other track who refuses to take that action.

    But ultimately you are right. The tote system is too archaic to handle the wagering in a timely manner.

    the double and triple payouts usually give a clue what the odds will be despite the early manipulation when the board opens for the next race...
    The art of learning is learning who to ignore ~LeAnn Rimes

  9. #9

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by railbird View Post
    Richie fingers would past post 5-7 seconds into qtr horse race
    This is one subject that you are indeed eminently qualified to speak on...

  10. #10

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Luca View Post
    There are definitely some terminals in the NorthEast that closes 5 to 8 seconds after the bell. Enough time to see how the speed breaks
    There have been a number of past posting incidents that were caught. Mike Maloney talked a bit about it on a GWAE podcast earlier in the year. I'm not sure we have to fear it on a daily basis, but why do these late moves get it right about 90% of the time? Every now and then you will see a 20/1 shot move up to 30/1 but on winners under $20, it seems like they always come down. And it's also uncanny how often poor breakers come up in price and a horse who clears gets pounded late (and I mean real late).

  11. #11

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Valuist View Post
    There have been a number of past posting incidents that were caught. Mike Maloney talked a bit about it on a GWAE podcast earlier in the year. I'm not sure we have to fear it on a daily basis, but why do these late moves get it right about 90% of the time? Every now and then you will see a 20/1 shot move up to 30/1 but on winners under $20, it seems like they always come down. And it's also uncanny how often poor breakers come up in price and a horse who clears gets pounded late (and I mean real late).

    Did he say one of the reservations involved?
    Lick my ice cream and kiss my pinky ring

  12. #12

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Luca View Post
    Did he say one of the reservations involved?
    I would have to go back to the podcast to get exact facts but I thought he said there were two races from 2007 at the Fair Grounds that were involved. I think he said he was able to past post in one of them.

    I remember an incident at Arlington in the mid 80s. The race went off and a mutuel clerk realized the machine didn't lock. A 30/1 shot opened up a lead on the backstretch and he bet $200 to win. Midway on the turn, he bet another $200. He bet another $200 in the stretch and several other clerks bet during the race as well. The 30/1 shot ends up winning. Prices get posted......$12.00 for the win mutuel and a near riot ensued. It was the lead story on the local CBS news and former NFL player and announcer Johnny Morris was live at the track reporting on it. They interviewed a clerk and he tried to paint himself as some sort of hero because he paid back the fraudulent bets he placed.

    We know about the 2002 pick 6 scandal, but that Drexel crew hit Belmont for several other smaller scores in 2002. If they weren't so greedy, they could've got away with it for a long time. But after the BC pick 6, one of them got interviewed by the DRF and was asked about his unusual ticket, which started out with 3 singles followed by 3 "alls". Two of the singles were over 10/1 but the crusher was the final leg, won by 40/1 shot Volponi. If Medaglia D'oro or one of the favorites won, there would've been no single winning ticket and they wouldn't have gotten caught.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    The Arlington horse was Dare and Defy..Hougton/Brumfield..teller was 2nd floor grandstand

  14. #14

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Valuist View Post

    Drexel crew hit Belmont for several other smaller scores in 2002. If they weren't so greedy, they could've got away with it for a long time. But after the BC pick 6, one of them got interviewed by the DRF and was asked about his unusual ticket, which started out with 3 singles followed by 3 "alls". Two of the singles were over 10/1 but the crusher was the final leg, won by 40/1 shot Volponi. If Medaglia D'oro or one of the favorites won, there would've been no single winning ticket and they wouldn't have gotten caught.
    That Drexel crew could have taken consol 5 of 6 for life....and never been on radar. Extremely Greedy
    Lick my ice cream and kiss my pinky ring

  15. #15

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    There's perception and there's reality.

    And both classifications are troubling right now.

    The batch bettors are excellent at identifying dead favorites.

    If you're looking for overlays at major racetracks, you'll only find them when the computer groups lose.

    Dead on the board equals dead on the racetrack.

    I contend more horses are "being held" than ever before.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    It's not about finding live horses anymore, it's about spotting the dead ones.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by blueline View Post
    The Arlington horse was Dare and Defy..Hougton/Brumfield..teller was 2nd floor grandstand
    You are 100% correct. You have a very good memory. I knew the name of the horse and knew Houghton trained, as he also trained for Santucci. I had forgotten Brumfield was the rider.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    If you wanted a no BS assessment of your horse you put Brumfield up...told you exactly what he was thinking..wouldn't mince words or BS trying to keep a mount for next time

  19. #19

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by blueline View Post
    If you wanted a no BS assessment of your horse you put Brumfield up...told you exactly what he was thinking..wouldn't mince words or BS trying to keep a mount for next time
    He was real old school. Probably was 55 years old back in the mid 80s.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    I faintly remember an incident at Sportsman's Park when the closing bell never rang.

    Teller first bet to show on the horse who entered the stretch with a commanding lead.

    At the eighth pole, the teller started punching the horse to place.

    And finally, with the horse nearing the wire, the teller bet to win.

    I'm thinking about the thoroughbred meet at Sportsman's in the 80's, but maybe I confused the Arlington incident described by Valuist and identified by Blueline with this one.

    By the way, my dreams are filled with racetrack happenings.

    I hate when I wake up thinking I've hit a six-figure Pick 6 only to realize it was all a dream.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    That 2nd floor grandstand area was a whole collection of weasely tellers.Clockers would bet there

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by blueline View Post
    If you wanted a no BS assessment of your horse you put Brumfield up...told you exactly what he was thinking..wouldn't mince words or BS trying to keep a mount for next time
    you are spot on about Brumfield. About ten years ago i was on vacation in Vegas and was lucky enough to get invited to dinner by a buddy to Hugos Cellar. He is good friends with Brumfield and Dave Kassen a trainer forever on the Florida, Kentucky, Chicago circuit who also was a jockey early in his career.
    They are both there and it was the most entertaining dinner of my life. You talk about a couple of old school guys that have been in the thoroughbred game forever. The stories those guys told were absolutely amazing. i could have stayed all night listening to their storys except Brumfield and Kassen of course wanted to go drink some more and gamble.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kelly View Post
    I faintly remember an incident at Sportsman's Park when the closing bell never rang.

    Teller first bet to show on the horse who entered the stretch with a commanding lead.

    At the eighth pole, the teller started punching the horse to place.

    And finally, with the horse nearing the wire, the teller bet to win.

    I'm thinking about the thoroughbred meet at Sportsman's in the 80's, but maybe I confused the Arlington incident described by Valuist and identified by Blueline with this one.

    By the way, my dreams are filled with racetrack happenings.

    I hate when I wake up thinking I've hit a six-figure Pick 6 only to realize it was all a dream.
    Maybe Blueline can confirm this, but I had heard how Hawthorne burned to the ground around 1980. Somebody got a ringer into a $5k claimer, and the ringer went on to run within a few tenths of the track record. They went to burn the foal papers but the racing office and then the entire facility, caught on fire. Was there anything more flammable in the 20th century than Chicago area racetracks?

  24. #24

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Big fan of the Kassen barn.
    I can only imagine how entertaining that dinner was.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Valuist View Post
    Maybe Blueline can confirm this, but I had heard how Hawthorne burned to the ground around 1980. Somebody got a ringer into a $5k claimer, and the ringer went on to run within a few tenths of the track record. They went to burn the foal papers but the racing office and then the entire facility, caught on fire. Was there anything more flammable in the 20th century than Chicago area racetracks?
    I heard that story a couple of times.
    Chicago racing was a real cesspool back then...some of the most fun times of my life

  26. #26

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockfish View Post
    you are spot on about Brumfield. About ten years ago i was on vacation in Vegas and was lucky enough to get invited to dinner by a buddy to Hugos Cellar. He is good friends with Brumfield and Dave Kassen a trainer forever on the Florida, Kentucky, Chicago circuit who also was a jockey early in his career.
    They are both there and it was the most entertaining dinner of my life. You talk about a couple of old school guys that have been in the thoroughbred game forever. The stories those guys told were absolutely amazing. i could have stayed all night listening to their storys except Brumfield and Kassen of course wanted to go drink some more and gamble.
    I remember Brumfield used to ride all of Kassen's horses. When I think of those two, I think of Jack Slade, who won a number of grass stakes at Arlington around that time period.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by blueline View Post
    I heard that story a couple of times.
    Chicago racing was a real cesspool back then...some of the most fun times of my life
    Absolutely.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Valuist View Post

    We know about the 2002 pick 6 scandal, but that Drexel crew hit Belmont for several other smaller scores in 2002. If they weren't so greedy, they could've got away with it for a long time. But after the BC pick 6, one of them got interviewed by the DRF and was asked about his unusual ticket, which started out with 3 singles followed by 3 "alls". Two of the singles were over 10/1 but the crusher was the final leg, won by 40/1 shot Volponi. If Medaglia D'oro or one of the favorites won, there would've been no single winning ticket and they wouldn't have gotten caught.
    Pretty sure it was 4 singles and then ALL/ALL ...tote company didn't have to submit tickets until after 4th LEG. Can't remember if only LIVE ones got sent or everyone got sent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Luca View Post
    That Drexel crew could have taken consol 5 of 6 for life....and never been on radar. Extremely Greedy
    Drexel boys were also cashing tickets that went unclaimed right before expiration. License to print money.

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    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Valuist View Post
    Maybe Blueline can confirm this, but I had heard how Hawthorne burned to the ground around 1980. Somebody got a ringer into a $5k claimer, and the ringer went on to run within a few tenths of the track record. They went to burn the foal papers but the racing office and then the entire facility, caught on fire. Was there anything more flammable in the 20th century than Chicago area racetracks?
    That has always been the rumor as to why Hawthorne burned down. i was there that day of the race.
    it was the second race of the day , second half of the double. Had a buddy come up to me as the first race was about to go and said some guy was at the ten dollar double window putting in a couple of thousand off this horse in the second. He kept punching until the first went off. Horse in the second was like 30-1 morning line and went off at 7-2 and won easily. Who rode the winner but none other than Johnnie Johnson the son of the owner of Sportsman Park. The trainer of the ringer was from Louisiana and ended up getting ruled off for life.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockfish View Post
    That has always been the rumor as to why Hawthorne burned down. i was there that day of the race.
    it was the second race of the day , second half of the double. Had a buddy come up to me as the first race was about to go and said some guy was at the ten dollar double window putting in a couple of thousand off this horse in the second. He kept punching until the first went off. Horse in the second was like 30-1 morning line and went off at 7-2 and won easily. Who rode the winner but none other than Johnnie Johnson the son of the owner of Sportsman Park. The trainer of the ringer was from Louisiana and ended up getting ruled off for life.
    I wonder who the trainer was?

    Remember Richard Strauss? He rode at Sportsmans and Detroit Race Course back in the day. One time at Sportsman's, right before the race, all the horses are backed out of the gates. We don't know what the delay is but Strauss' horse gets scratched. Turns out they caught him with a buzzer and ruled him off for life. He fought it for years, right up around til the time he died, maybe 15 years ago.

    Then around late 80s, Glyn Louviere is riding a rat who's 30/1 in the ML and looks it. But money starts pouring in late, pounding him down to around 5/2. He rallies from far back but as he's galloping out he shoves the buzzer into his pants. You could see it sticking out. That ended up being Louviere's last ride in Chicago.

    We don't seem to hear about as many buzzer incidents. There was Valhol in the Ark Derby maybe 10 years ago and Roman Chapa got banned down in Texas. Rumor has it if one wants to ride for Stevie A, they'd better be willing to ride with a buzzer.

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    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by blueline View Post
    That 2nd floor grandstand area was a whole collection of weasely tellers.Clockers would bet there
    Weasely is the perfect word to describe the tellers back then Blueline. They were everywhere on the Chicago Circuit. Majority of the tellers had mob connections or worked for the city, county, or state too. Sam Giancana's brother worked the bottom floor of the granstand for like forty years.

  32. #32

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockfish View Post
    Weasely is the perfect word to describe the tellers back then Blueline. They were everywhere on the Chicago Circuit. Majority of the tellers had mob connections or worked for the city, county, or state too. Sam Giancana's brother worked the bottom floor of the granstand for like forty years.
    Chicago racing really was a cesspool. But back then, you had some good barns there. They still had good barns the first 5 years or so after Arlington was rebuilt. Sportsman's was a great track; then the apprentice got killed and Lukas said he'd never send another horse there due to the hairpin turns so they reconfigured the track and wrecked it. Fall Hawthorne was my favorite betting meet. 12 horse fields almost every race, and crazy biases that would last a couple days, then completely reverse.

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    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Valuist View Post
    I wonder who the trainer was?

    Remember Richard Strauss? He rode at Sportsmans and Detroit Race Course back in the day. One time at Sportsman's, right before the race, all the horses are backed out of the gates. We don't know what the delay is but Strauss' horse gets scratched. Turns out they caught him with a buzzer and ruled him off for life. He fought it for years, right up around til the time he died, maybe 15 years ago.

    Then around late 80s, Glyn Louviere is riding a rat who's 30/1 in the ML and looks it. But money starts pouring in late, pounding him down to around 5/2. He rallies from far back but as he's galloping out he shoves the buzzer into his pants. You could see it sticking out. That ended up being Louviere's last ride in Chicago.

    We don't seem to hear about as many buzzer incidents. There was Valhol in the Ark Derby maybe 10 years ago and Roman Chapa got banned down in Texas. Rumor has it if one wants to ride for Stevie A, they'd better be willing to ride with a buzzer.
    it was his brother Geary. Fat Gino security guy confronted the Jock in the winners circle and the buzzer fell out of his pants.
    Balmoral Stewards Ban Louviere For Life


    December 20, 1988|By Neil Milbert.















      • New








    Jockey Geary Louviere on Monday was suspended for ``the remainder of his natural life`` by Balmoral Park stewards, who claim he used an electrical device to spur a horse to victory at the track earlier this month.
    Following a hearing, stewards Eddie Arroyo, Bill Hartack and Joe Navigato ruled that Louviere was guilty of using the electrical device on Chief In Charge, a surprising first-place finisher in the sixth race on Dec. 13 at Balmoral.





    The suspension denies Louviere access to all racetracks and off-track betting facilities under the jurisdiction of the Illinois Racing Board.
    It also will keep him from riding at any parimutuel track in the U.S. and Canada because suspensions of this sort in one jurisdiction are honored by other regulatory bodies.
    Chief In Charge was a 50 to 1 shot on the track`s morning line but his odds plummeted to 7 to 1 at post time. Acting on a tip, Balmoral`s security department had a TV camera zero in on Louviere throughout the race and in the winner`s circle afterward. When he was confronted by security guards for questioning, they testified, he turned his back and undid his trousers and the battery fell out.
    Chief In Charge was declared a nonstarter by the stewards and all bets were immediately refunded.

  34. #34

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockfish View Post
    it was his brother Geary. Fat Gino security guy confronted the Jock in the winners circle and the buzzer fell out of his pants.
    Balmoral Stewards Ban Louviere For Life


    December 20, 1988|By Neil Milbert.










      • New








    Jockey Geary Louviere on Monday was suspended for ``the remainder of his natural life`` by Balmoral Park stewards, who claim he used an electrical device to spur a horse to victory at the track earlier this month.
    Following a hearing, stewards Eddie Arroyo, Bill Hartack and Joe Navigato ruled that Louviere was guilty of using the electrical device on Chief In Charge, a surprising first-place finisher in the sixth race on Dec. 13 at Balmoral.





    The suspension denies Louviere access to all racetracks and off-track betting facilities under the jurisdiction of the Illinois Racing Board.
    It also will keep him from riding at any parimutuel track in the U.S. and Canada because suspensions of this sort in one jurisdiction are honored by other regulatory bodies.
    Chief In Charge was a 50 to 1 shot on the track`s morning line but his odds plummeted to 7 to 1 at post time. Acting on a tip, Balmoral`s security department had a TV camera zero in on Louviere throughout the race and in the winner`s circle afterward. When he was confronted by security guards for questioning, they testified, he turned his back and undid his trousers and the battery fell out.
    Chief In Charge was declared a nonstarter by the stewards and all bets were immediately refunded.
    I stand corrected. It was Geary, not Glyn Louviere. The memory not quite as sharp as it once was. Some crazy times at the Chicago tracks back in the 80s. I didn't follow harness racing. I can only imagine it was worse there.

  35. #35

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Strauss was riding a lot of Darjean's horses.

    First day I had an IRB license I misplaced it....Geary Louviere found it for me.

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