Dwyer and late batch betting
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  1. #1

    Default Dwyer and late batch betting

    Firenze Fire was 5/1 when the gates opened, but by the time he hit the wire, he was all the way down to 5/2, a massive drop.

    http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com...wyer-wagering/

    Legit or not, the perception is very bad. I would rather wagering were shut off a minute before post. The current system needs major fixes.

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    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Not sure it matters, suppose you bet at the 5 minute mark 5/1 and watch it drop, you going to cancel the wager. Cut it off with 2-3 minutes to post wont stop you either, you going to cancel a bet that might be 3/1 from when you bet the 5/1 shot. To me, it's just the game of para mutual wagering.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by cheapseats View Post
    Not sure it matters, suppose you bet at the 5 minute mark 5/1 and watch it drop, you going to cancel the wager. Cut it off with 2-3 minutes to post wont stop you either, you going to cancel a bet that might be 3/1 from when you bet the 5/1 shot. To me, it's just the game of para mutual wagering.
    It's gotten worse as the Wall Street guys with the computer batch betting have got into the game. There are a couple tracks, I know Oaklawn is one, where they will not accept computer batch betting. But most tracks drool at the idea of additional handle.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    if you want to know what your odds are, all betting needs to close 2 minutes earlier

    and then two minutes after and 10 seconds before race goes of you will see your number

    this is because system is not world class enough to spit in independent shops that take action.

    the bets were made well before post, it just gives conspiracy types ammo

  5. #5

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by raininthrees View Post
    if you want to know what your odds are, all betting needs to close 2 minutes earlier

    and then two minutes after and 10 seconds before race goes of you will see your number

    this is because system is not world class enough to spit in independent shops that take action.

    the bets were made well before post, it just gives conspiracy types ammo
    I think most of us realize the bets are placed before post (seconds, not WELL before post). The problem is the perception is real, real bad. Newbies see this and are turned off right away. The second problem is that the computer groups with the algorithms are playing at an advantage, as they ultimately are the only ones who know what the closing odds will be. If there's a variance, it just fires off bets in the closing moments. I mentioned Oaklawn earlier, and apparently Tampa Bay is the other track who refuses to take that action.

    But ultimately you are right. The tote system is too archaic to handle the wagering in a timely manner.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Valuist View Post
    I think most of us realize the bets are placed before post (seconds, not WELL before post). The problem is the perception is real, real bad. Newbies see this and are turned off right away. The second problem is that the computer groups with the algorithms are playing at an advantage, as they ultimately are the only ones who know what the closing odds will be. If there's a variance, it just fires off bets in the closing moments. I mentioned Oaklawn earlier, and apparently Tampa Bay is the other track who refuses to take that action.

    But ultimately you are right. The tote system is too archaic to handle the wagering in a timely manner.

    There are definitely some terminals in the NorthEast that closes 5 to 8 seconds after the bell. Enough time to see how the speed breaks
    Lick my ice cream and kiss my pinky ring

  7. #7

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Luca View Post
    There are definitely some terminals in the NorthEast that closes 5 to 8 seconds after the bell. Enough time to see how the speed breaks
    There have been a number of past posting incidents that were caught. Mike Maloney talked a bit about it on a GWAE podcast earlier in the year. I'm not sure we have to fear it on a daily basis, but why do these late moves get it right about 90% of the time? Every now and then you will see a 20/1 shot move up to 30/1 but on winners under $20, it seems like they always come down. And it's also uncanny how often poor breakers come up in price and a horse who clears gets pounded late (and I mean real late).

  8. #8

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Valuist View Post
    There have been a number of past posting incidents that were caught. Mike Maloney talked a bit about it on a GWAE podcast earlier in the year. I'm not sure we have to fear it on a daily basis, but why do these late moves get it right about 90% of the time? Every now and then you will see a 20/1 shot move up to 30/1 but on winners under $20, it seems like they always come down. And it's also uncanny how often poor breakers come up in price and a horse who clears gets pounded late (and I mean real late).

    Did he say one of the reservations involved?
    Lick my ice cream and kiss my pinky ring

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    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Valuist View Post
    I think most of us realize the bets are placed before post (seconds, not WELL before post). The problem is the perception is real, real bad. Newbies see this and are turned off right away. The second problem is that the computer groups with the algorithms are playing at an advantage, as they ultimately are the only ones who know what the closing odds will be. If there's a variance, it just fires off bets in the closing moments. I mentioned Oaklawn earlier, and apparently Tampa Bay is the other track who refuses to take that action.

    But ultimately you are right. The tote system is too archaic to handle the wagering in a timely manner.

    the double and triple payouts usually give a clue what the odds will be despite the early manipulation when the board opens for the next race...
    The art of learning is learning who to ignore ~LeAnn Rimes

  10. #10

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Richie fingers would past post 5-7 seconds into qtr horse race

  11. #11

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by railbird View Post
    Richie fingers would past post 5-7 seconds into qtr horse race
    This is one subject that you are indeed eminently qualified to speak on...

  12. #12

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    The Arlington horse was Dare and Defy..Hougton/Brumfield..teller was 2nd floor grandstand

  13. #13

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by blueline View Post
    The Arlington horse was Dare and Defy..Hougton/Brumfield..teller was 2nd floor grandstand
    You are 100% correct. You have a very good memory. I knew the name of the horse and knew Houghton trained, as he also trained for Santucci. I had forgotten Brumfield was the rider.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    There's perception and there's reality.

    And both classifications are troubling right now.

    The batch bettors are excellent at identifying dead favorites.

    If you're looking for overlays at major racetracks, you'll only find them when the computer groups lose.

    Dead on the board equals dead on the racetrack.

    I contend more horses are "being held" than ever before.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    It's not about finding live horses anymore, it's about spotting the dead ones.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    If you wanted a no BS assessment of your horse you put Brumfield up...told you exactly what he was thinking..wouldn't mince words or BS trying to keep a mount for next time

  17. #17

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by blueline View Post
    If you wanted a no BS assessment of your horse you put Brumfield up...told you exactly what he was thinking..wouldn't mince words or BS trying to keep a mount for next time
    He was real old school. Probably was 55 years old back in the mid 80s.

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    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by blueline View Post
    If you wanted a no BS assessment of your horse you put Brumfield up...told you exactly what he was thinking..wouldn't mince words or BS trying to keep a mount for next time
    you are spot on about Brumfield. About ten years ago i was on vacation in Vegas and was lucky enough to get invited to dinner by a buddy to Hugos Cellar. He is good friends with Brumfield and Dave Kassen a trainer forever on the Florida, Kentucky, Chicago circuit who also was a jockey early in his career.
    They are both there and it was the most entertaining dinner of my life. You talk about a couple of old school guys that have been in the thoroughbred game forever. The stories those guys told were absolutely amazing. i could have stayed all night listening to their storys except Brumfield and Kassen of course wanted to go drink some more and gamble.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockfish View Post
    you are spot on about Brumfield. About ten years ago i was on vacation in Vegas and was lucky enough to get invited to dinner by a buddy to Hugos Cellar. He is good friends with Brumfield and Dave Kassen a trainer forever on the Florida, Kentucky, Chicago circuit who also was a jockey early in his career.
    They are both there and it was the most entertaining dinner of my life. You talk about a couple of old school guys that have been in the thoroughbred game forever. The stories those guys told were absolutely amazing. i could have stayed all night listening to their storys except Brumfield and Kassen of course wanted to go drink some more and gamble.
    I remember Brumfield used to ride all of Kassen's horses. When I think of those two, I think of Jack Slade, who won a number of grass stakes at Arlington around that time period.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    I faintly remember an incident at Sportsman's Park when the closing bell never rang.

    Teller first bet to show on the horse who entered the stretch with a commanding lead.

    At the eighth pole, the teller started punching the horse to place.

    And finally, with the horse nearing the wire, the teller bet to win.

    I'm thinking about the thoroughbred meet at Sportsman's in the 80's, but maybe I confused the Arlington incident described by Valuist and identified by Blueline with this one.

    By the way, my dreams are filled with racetrack happenings.

    I hate when I wake up thinking I've hit a six-figure Pick 6 only to realize it was all a dream.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kelly View Post
    I faintly remember an incident at Sportsman's Park when the closing bell never rang.

    Teller first bet to show on the horse who entered the stretch with a commanding lead.

    At the eighth pole, the teller started punching the horse to place.

    And finally, with the horse nearing the wire, the teller bet to win.

    I'm thinking about the thoroughbred meet at Sportsman's in the 80's, but maybe I confused the Arlington incident described by Valuist and identified by Blueline with this one.

    By the way, my dreams are filled with racetrack happenings.

    I hate when I wake up thinking I've hit a six-figure Pick 6 only to realize it was all a dream.
    Maybe Blueline can confirm this, but I had heard how Hawthorne burned to the ground around 1980. Somebody got a ringer into a $5k claimer, and the ringer went on to run within a few tenths of the track record. They went to burn the foal papers but the racing office and then the entire facility, caught on fire. Was there anything more flammable in the 20th century than Chicago area racetracks?

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    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Valuist View Post
    Maybe Blueline can confirm this, but I had heard how Hawthorne burned to the ground around 1980. Somebody got a ringer into a $5k claimer, and the ringer went on to run within a few tenths of the track record. They went to burn the foal papers but the racing office and then the entire facility, caught on fire. Was there anything more flammable in the 20th century than Chicago area racetracks?
    That has always been the rumor as to why Hawthorne burned down. i was there that day of the race.
    it was the second race of the day , second half of the double. Had a buddy come up to me as the first race was about to go and said some guy was at the ten dollar double window putting in a couple of thousand off this horse in the second. He kept punching until the first went off. Horse in the second was like 30-1 morning line and went off at 7-2 and won easily. Who rode the winner but none other than Johnnie Johnson the son of the owner of Sportsman Park. The trainer of the ringer was from Louisiana and ended up getting ruled off for life.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockfish View Post
    That has always been the rumor as to why Hawthorne burned down. i was there that day of the race.
    it was the second race of the day , second half of the double. Had a buddy come up to me as the first race was about to go and said some guy was at the ten dollar double window putting in a couple of thousand off this horse in the second. He kept punching until the first went off. Horse in the second was like 30-1 morning line and went off at 7-2 and won easily. Who rode the winner but none other than Johnnie Johnson the son of the owner of Sportsman Park. The trainer of the ringer was from Louisiana and ended up getting ruled off for life.
    I wonder who the trainer was?

    Remember Richard Strauss? He rode at Sportsmans and Detroit Race Course back in the day. One time at Sportsman's, right before the race, all the horses are backed out of the gates. We don't know what the delay is but Strauss' horse gets scratched. Turns out they caught him with a buzzer and ruled him off for life. He fought it for years, right up around til the time he died, maybe 15 years ago.

    Then around late 80s, Glyn Louviere is riding a rat who's 30/1 in the ML and looks it. But money starts pouring in late, pounding him down to around 5/2. He rallies from far back but as he's galloping out he shoves the buzzer into his pants. You could see it sticking out. That ended up being Louviere's last ride in Chicago.

    We don't seem to hear about as many buzzer incidents. There was Valhol in the Ark Derby maybe 10 years ago and Roman Chapa got banned down in Texas. Rumor has it if one wants to ride for Stevie A, they'd better be willing to ride with a buzzer.

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    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Valuist View Post
    I wonder who the trainer was?

    Remember Richard Strauss? He rode at Sportsmans and Detroit Race Course back in the day. One time at Sportsman's, right before the race, all the horses are backed out of the gates. We don't know what the delay is but Strauss' horse gets scratched. Turns out they caught him with a buzzer and ruled him off for life. He fought it for years, right up around til the time he died, maybe 15 years ago.

    Then around late 80s, Glyn Louviere is riding a rat who's 30/1 in the ML and looks it. But money starts pouring in late, pounding him down to around 5/2. He rallies from far back but as he's galloping out he shoves the buzzer into his pants. You could see it sticking out. That ended up being Louviere's last ride in Chicago.

    We don't seem to hear about as many buzzer incidents. There was Valhol in the Ark Derby maybe 10 years ago and Roman Chapa got banned down in Texas. Rumor has it if one wants to ride for Stevie A, they'd better be willing to ride with a buzzer.
    it was his brother Geary. Fat Gino security guy confronted the Jock in the winners circle and the buzzer fell out of his pants.
    Balmoral Stewards Ban Louviere For Life


    December 20, 1988|By Neil Milbert.















      • New








    Jockey Geary Louviere on Monday was suspended for ``the remainder of his natural life`` by Balmoral Park stewards, who claim he used an electrical device to spur a horse to victory at the track earlier this month.
    Following a hearing, stewards Eddie Arroyo, Bill Hartack and Joe Navigato ruled that Louviere was guilty of using the electrical device on Chief In Charge, a surprising first-place finisher in the sixth race on Dec. 13 at Balmoral.





    The suspension denies Louviere access to all racetracks and off-track betting facilities under the jurisdiction of the Illinois Racing Board.
    It also will keep him from riding at any parimutuel track in the U.S. and Canada because suspensions of this sort in one jurisdiction are honored by other regulatory bodies.
    Chief In Charge was a 50 to 1 shot on the track`s morning line but his odds plummeted to 7 to 1 at post time. Acting on a tip, Balmoral`s security department had a TV camera zero in on Louviere throughout the race and in the winner`s circle afterward. When he was confronted by security guards for questioning, they testified, he turned his back and undid his trousers and the battery fell out.
    Chief In Charge was declared a nonstarter by the stewards and all bets were immediately refunded.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    That 2nd floor grandstand area was a whole collection of weasely tellers.Clockers would bet there

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    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by blueline View Post
    That 2nd floor grandstand area was a whole collection of weasely tellers.Clockers would bet there
    Weasely is the perfect word to describe the tellers back then Blueline. They were everywhere on the Chicago Circuit. Majority of the tellers had mob connections or worked for the city, county, or state too. Sam Giancana's brother worked the bottom floor of the granstand for like forty years.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockfish View Post
    Weasely is the perfect word to describe the tellers back then Blueline. They were everywhere on the Chicago Circuit. Majority of the tellers had mob connections or worked for the city, county, or state too. Sam Giancana's brother worked the bottom floor of the granstand for like forty years.
    Chicago racing really was a cesspool. But back then, you had some good barns there. They still had good barns the first 5 years or so after Arlington was rebuilt. Sportsman's was a great track; then the apprentice got killed and Lukas said he'd never send another horse there due to the hairpin turns so they reconfigured the track and wrecked it. Fall Hawthorne was my favorite betting meet. 12 horse fields almost every race, and crazy biases that would last a couple days, then completely reverse.

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    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Valuist View Post
    Chicago racing really was a cesspool. But back then, you had some good barns there. They still had good barns the first 5 years or so after Arlington was rebuilt. Sportsman's was a great track; then the apprentice got killed and Lukas said he'd never send another horse there due to the hairpin turns so they reconfigured the track and wrecked it. Fall Hawthorne was my favorite betting meet. 12 horse fields almost every race, and crazy biases that would last a couple days, then completely reverse.
    Was at Sportsman that day the jockey got killed. Rodney Dickens was his name.
    Your right about the biases at Hawthorne. Made for great opportunities. Trainer JR Smith had the "magic touch"with claimers back then.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockfish View Post
    Was at Sportsman that day the jockey got killed. Rodney Dickens was his name.
    Your right about the biases at Hawthorne. Made for great opportunities. Trainer JR Smith had the "magic touch"with claimers back then.
    The funny thing about Hawthorne back then. It seemed like very few neutral tracks. Either speed and rail were great, or the inside was horrific. Absolute death. Either the maintenance crews have improved a lot, or they were intentionally carving biases to profit from them in the afternoon. I was at Oaklawn one spring and heard rumors they manufactured biases and would hammer the doubles, which was their only exotic back years ago. With all the crap going on in Chicago, I guarantee you the Hawthorne crew was profiting from the biases.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Big fan of the Kassen barn.
    I can only imagine how entertaining that dinner was.

  31. #31

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by Valuist View Post
    Maybe Blueline can confirm this, but I had heard how Hawthorne burned to the ground around 1980. Somebody got a ringer into a $5k claimer, and the ringer went on to run within a few tenths of the track record. They went to burn the foal papers but the racing office and then the entire facility, caught on fire. Was there anything more flammable in the 20th century than Chicago area racetracks?
    I heard that story a couple of times.
    Chicago racing was a real cesspool back then...some of the most fun times of my life

  32. #32

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Quote Originally Posted by blueline View Post
    I heard that story a couple of times.
    Chicago racing was a real cesspool back then...some of the most fun times of my life
    Absolutely.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Strauss was riding a lot of Darjean's horses.

    First day I had an IRB license I misplaced it....Geary Louviere found it for me.

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    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    i got my start in harness racing in the late 70's. Owned a few cheap claimers, worked the backstretch for a few years and just loved being around the track. did a many of doubleheaders back in the day the old school way. No inter track or otb's then. Had to do the driving from day thoroughbred venue to night harness venue.
    Yes harness racing was and is very corrupt on all levels. Betting, training, driving, owning, and don't forget selling horses too.

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    Default Re: Dwyer and late batch betting

    Here is a tribune article that writes about both stories talked about in this thread.

    Past scandals don't come close


    November 14, 2002|BY NEIL MILBERT.














    Though there have been other scandals in U.S. horse racing and pari-mutuel betting, none approaches the current furor surrounding the Oct. 26 Breeders' Cup at Arlington Park.
    Never before has as an alleged conspiracy yielded a payoff even remotely comparable to the $3,067,821 in winnings that accused conspirator Derrick Davis of Baltimore tried to collect after making a touch-tone telephone wager with an off-track betting parlor in upstate New York.





    "In my 56 years in racing, there is no comparison between this case and any other in scope and magnitude," said Stan Bergstein, executive vice president of Harness Tracks of America, a trade association of 36 tracks in the U.S. and Canada.
    The other defendants charged this week in connection with the scandal are Christopher Harn of Newark, Del., and Glen DaSilva of New York. The two were Davis' fraternity brothers at Drexel University in Philadelphia in the 1990s.
    According to law-enforcment authorities, Harn used his position as a computer programmer for Autotote Systems Inc. to alter Davis' bets on all six races of the Breeders' Cup, as well as earlier bets made by DaSilva on a Pick Four at Balmoral Park on Oct. 3 and a Pick Six wager at Belmont Park in New York two days later.
    All three men maintain their innocence.
    Bergstein and other racing officials maintain that this case is different from previous racing scandals in that no people involved in the industry appear to have been involved.
    "It appears it's just three guys," he said.
    "There's nothing to indicate in any way, shape or form that there was a fixed race involved in this. [Past scandals] are completely different in scope and intent."
    There were two particularly infamous betting scandals in Illinois during the 1970s, and both involved people intimately involved in racing.
    In the fall of 1978, investigators uncovered a horse-substitution ring involving seven tracks in six states, including Hawthorne Race Course. Superior horses were entered in races under the names of lesser-quality animals, allowing them to win races against outclassed opponents. Counterfeit foal certificates were used to disguise the ringers' identities.
    On Nov. 19, 1978--the day after a ringer named Roman Decade won Hawthorne's second race running under the name Charollius--the track was destroyed by fire.
    Arson was suspected, and investigators believed the fire was set to destroy the fraudulent foal certificates in the racing secretary's office. But the certificates were saved.
    One of the two men accused in Illinois was acquitted of the charges, while the other was found guilty and sentenced to a year and a day in prison.
    The other scandal occurred in 1973 and is documented in an Illinois Legislative Investigative Commission report of March 1974. According to the report, a well-known owner and trainer had conspired with known organized-crime figures to fix trifecta bets at Arlington and Hawthorne.



    The suspected scheme involved jockeys holding back their horses to allow designated horses to finish first, second and third.
    Two such races were discussed in detail in the report: a trifecta race at Arlington in which 32 bettors collected 49 tickets worth a total of $83,526.40, and a later trifecta at Hawthorne that paid nine winning tickets for a total of $104,384.70.
    Investigators determined that in several cases, owner/trainer Bill Resseguet had asked other individuals to cash his winning tickets, offering them a cut.
    No charges were filed in Illinois. But Resseguet later was suspended indefinitely by the Louisiana State Racing Commission after being arrested and charged with attempting to bribe the state chemist after tests on two of his horses revealed they had an illegal drug in their systems.
    Resseguet was pardoned by Louisiana Gov. Edwin Edwards in 1987 and relicensed. He attempted to return to Illinois but a ruling by the stewards at Hawthorne on June 2, 1989, revoked his temporary license application and he was declared ineligible for licensing.
    Those two scandals may have been more damaging to racing's integrity, since the accused were intimately involved in the actual racing. Most of the accused collected their winnings and continued to earn their living on the racetrack.
    By contrast, Davis has not been allowed to collect his payoff. If he is found guilty, the money will be redistributed to enhance the payoffs of those bettors who received consolation prizes for picking five of the Breeders' Cup Pick Six winners.
    But simply because of the amount involved, the Breeders' Cup scandal has received far more coverage.
    "I don't think there has ever been anything in racing that has commanded the coverage this has,"said Bergstein, who in addition to being an internationally renowned expert on harness racing is a close observer of thoroughbred racing and writes a weekly column for Daily Racing Form.
    "The press coverage . . . has been sustained since the event and presumably will be sustained because of the charges being brought."

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