Re: Why no neteller noise?
"I would call them suggestions - not answers."
How convenient huh Sean...tomato, tom-ato I say.
You clearly think it's a simple issue to solve, whereas it's obviously not. Common sense would dictate that as an organization wishing to survive they would not want to piss off the Sean's of the world and would therefore try pay us our money back. It's NOT in there interests to not do so. Doesn't this make sense to you?
"I would not call it intimate. Familar would be a better word."
I would call it 'clueless'.
"Additionally, all 4 UK banks subpoenoed were ones with large US operations. There are many many banks around the world (UK included) that do not have any US operations and couldnt give a flying fuck what the DOJ thinks."
Oh really?
So again you making this very naive assumption that neteller could easily send us our money because any bank in the world would have no issue and would raise no suspicion with a new company suddenly opening a business account and then sending out what pottentially thousands of checks worth millions of dollars?
Get real!
Sean these are BANKS we're talking about. Banks are traditional finance institutions runs by conservative old men in suits. If you really believe that they are going to fly in the face of the US government and give 2 fingers up, then you are extremely naive.
9-11 changed everything. I guarantee you that there isn't a first-tier bank in the world anymore that would dare piss of the US government. Unless you want your checks sent from Iran or North Korea. Would that satisfy you?
Do me a favour. Call up a bank, any bank, in the world and tell them you'd like to send checks, wires, or whatever for online gambling transactions to US citizens. If you're able to do this by being absolutely transparant with the bank (and not lying to them about the true nature of your business), and you can prove to me that you did this - I'll personally send you $100.
Hows that for a deal?
"International laws? The only international laws I am aware of say gambling is legal. Please don't confuse US with international."
Excuse me then for mixing up my terminology, but the point remains that a legitmate first tier bank does NOT want to do business with any organization that breaks laws in another country. Try go into your local bank in whatever city you live, and tell them that you'd like to open an online processing account so that you can sell viagra online. Then tell them that you won't be selling to US residents and therefore wont be breaking the law. Tell them you'll be selling to some backward 3rd world country where there are no laws against selling viagra online.
See if they don't mind participating in act that breaks the laws of a foreign country.
Go ahead an ask.
"If a user moves opens an account in Canada or the UK, no bank in the UK is breaking US law by transferring his funds to a bank in the UK or Canada.... Sorry. You are reaching..."
No I'm not reaching. The funds originated from the US from gambling and therefore according to our government are the 'proceeds of crime'. To allow them to be transfered would be further transgressing the law.
"So you are going to tell me there are no UK banks that will allow neteller to write checks????? Give me a break. Sure, UBS may say no, but I am sure Franks bank of london would be happy to have the business. Many of these banks have no branches or possessions in the US and could care less about Uncle Sam."
Come now Sean. Excersize some common sense here.
Firstly, how comfortable would you feel with neteller using some 3rd rate rickety little bank to process millions of dollars worth of checks? I thought you wanted to get your money?
Secondly of all I think that again you have no concept of how banks work outside of America and in places like UK. I'm no expert but as far as I know they don't have lots of local county-type banks like we do. They have a couple of major banks and that's about it. And these are all heavily regulated.
But again, I encourage you to do a search online, find a UK bank and ask them yourself if they wouldn't mind writing checks for us online gamblers in America.
Think you might be in for a rude awakening.
"No. They have said we are working on withdrawals. They have made no comments about seizures and they refuse to answer direct questions."
Who's to say they have the answers or even know the details? Would you rather they speculate and give out innacurate information before they have all the facts, thereby potentially jeaporadising any chance of us getting our money back at all?
"Yes, I have looked over the Patriot ACt. Last i checked other countries decide whether or not to enforce our laws over there and most have said they will enforce the Patriot act vs TERRORISM.. I don't think the UK is allowing bank seizure over gambling. I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it. If the DOJ could show the UK that XXX account is related to a known terrorist, sure they will freeze it, but if the DOJ says we think these guys bet the pats, good luck..."
The above is just hysterical.
Our government ignores the UN, the WTO and anyone else they want. Trust me Sean, there is nothing that will get in their way and they will squeeze whatever country they want to get what they want.
And any company (including banks) with any ties to the US at all will be under threat. I think you'll find that most of (if not all) big banks in the England probably have some link to the US and therefore could risk having their own assets being frozen.
"The Patriot act is a US LAW and no the US does not have jurisdiction over the WORLD."
Tell that to the UN and Iraq.
Our government does what it wants. It's only now we're seeing the extent to which they'll go.
"No kidding. I don't trust them at all. That doesnt mean Neteller can not issue a statement:
"None of our funds have been confiscated. WE are working on finding ways for US customers to withdraw or the FBI has confiscated 20% of our funds."
Maybe, and just maybe they will make a statement like this in the future but you or I can't dictate when they make such anouncements. One thing I doubt they want to do is piss of our government anymore. With our interests in mind they might be trying to appease the FBI or whoever and come to an agreement.
"If Interlac confiscated Citibank funds and UK users could not withdraw, how long do you think it would be before Citibank would issue a press release? Neteller is acting irresponsibly and is crushing their reputation."
I dont know how long it would take Citibank to do a press release but I'd imagine that whilst their lawyers were assesing the situation they would keep quiet...much the same as I suspect these guys are doing.
"Ok.. A company holding millions or billions of dollars and not providing any explanation is rational. You are right."
They have provided information on their site, albeit not detailed or an explanation as such but they have told us they're working on it. Again you ignore the obvious complexity and sensitivity of the situation and naively recomend that they approach this brutally with complete forthrightness and transparancy. As someone with even just a little exposure to business law I know that this is not how you should do this.
"If I ran Neteller and I had no plans to ever visit the US, I would politely tell the DOJ and FBI that they have no jurisdiction just as people like Hayden Ware and Calvin Ayre have told them."
Unlike the aforementioned people, as far as I know netteller is in the UK and therefore so are their directors and key people. And as far as I know the UK has an extradition treaty with the US. Now I might be mistaken but Ithink Calvin and Hayden live in the Carribean somewhere. So they have no worries. Ever heard of the Enron case? Weren't some Brits extradited to the US to face charges?
"I would then find a solution to pay my US clients - well not really cause if I was in charge of neteller, you'd still be able to use neteller because if I opened a sportsbook or money transferring service and placed it offshore for a reason, I would have made the committment to living outside the US. Of course I have not made this choice, but if I had a working biz in ENgland, I would seek England's backing and keep running my business. I have a feeling if Afghanistan indicted Budweiser for making beer, Anheiser Busch would tell them to fuck off... I would do the same if I owned Neteller."
Ah...what an idealist you are. If only the world were so.
Again you must think netteller is an island. They have dependencies on suppliers. If suppliers cut them off then they are fucked. The US gov can pressure their US based suppliers (or any suppliers with ties to the US) to cut them off. And some of those suppliers would probably choose to abandon netteler without preassure from the US simply because of reputational risk.
How would you keep running your business when the very companies you rely on are based in or have ties to the US? You wouldn't....
Your Afgahn example is a stretch...a better example would be if Budweiser sold beer online to Afgahnistan residents even though selling beer online in Afghan was illegal (but no illegal in America). The Afgahn government could take legal action against them.
In our case though our government would tell them to go fuck themselves...
ffice
