Must be nice...

tripp

EOG Master
to only have to score 22 and your team still wins easily. I was on the Lakers and have them large for the series, but wow what a difference between what Kobe has to work with and what LeBron has to work with. They're playing a by far better team also and Kobe can STILL be average and they win.

Fuck, if LeBron was ever average and scored around 20 the Cavs would lose by 30 pts. He has to be brilliant every game and even when he is they still might lose because Mo Williams can't hit open shots.

Carry on Kobe lovers. Lets hear why he is better than James and how his supporting cast is overrated and Lebron's is underrated.:hangt
 

mofome

Banned
Re: Must be nice...

to only have to score 22 and your team still wins easily. I was on the Lakers and have them large for the series, but wow what a difference between what Kobe has to work with and what LeBron has to work with. They're playing a by far better team also and Kobe can STILL be average and they win.

Fuck, if LeBron was ever average and scored around 20 the Cavs would lose by 30 pts. He has to be brilliant every game and even when he is they still might lose because Mo Williams can't hit open shots.

Carry on Kobe lovers. Lets hear why he is better than James and how his supporting cast is overrated and Lebron's is underrated.


It absolutely amazes me how naive some people are. Not just that, but those people have the audacity to speak down to those who actually get it. Its hilarious for anyone to even consider that Lebron is overrated, imo, he is underrated. He made Mo Williams and all star, he won the coach of the year award for his coach, he took bums to the playoffs again, he guards anyone on the other team, he takes their jump balls, he brings the ball up himself plenty, he gets the big rebounds, he gets no rest, he gets 100% of the oppositions defensive attention and still...the pedestrians around him cant do a thing. You could not possibly have an easier job in the NBA than Mo williams or the rest of Lebrons teammates.

Kobe had more turnovers today than made field goals. Where are all the babbling goons referencing the turnovers?

People, aka human beings, are disappointingly naive at times.
 

Flamingo kid

Everybody's hands go UP!
Re: Must be nice...

Kobe's supporting cast is SO much better than Lebron's its not even a discussion. Pau would be by far the 2nd best player on the Cavs. Also, the Lakers have a few guys who can hit 3 pt shots, the Cavs have no one really.
 

mofome

Banned
Re: Must be nice...

Kobe's supporting cast is SO much better than Lebron's its not even a discussion. Pau would be by far the 2nd best player on the Cavs. Also, the Lakers have a few guys who can hit 3 pt shots, the Cavs have no one really.


People used to think it was close. Something happened.

:shoot:
 

mofome

Banned
Re: Must be nice...

Its not even like the Clev supporting cast is asked to do anything semi-difficult. Hit wide open shots that you get because you play with Lebron. These players are just average role players. Not a bit more.
 

royalfan

EOG Dedicated
Re: Must be nice...

Mike Brown could make the supporting cast look a lot better with a little bit of creativity. He has absolutely none of it. Bron on LA and LA is at least as good as they are now though in my opinion. Bron is just a beast that can do so much. But Kobe closing ability is so important. I am not sure why it is so important for everyone to feel they need to say one or the other is better. They are both phenominal players. I enjoy watching them both for who they are and doing what they do. The nba is truly where amazing happens, largely because of these two fellas.
 

mofome

Banned
Re: Must be nice...

Mike Brown could make the supporting cast look a lot better with a little bit of creativity. He has absolutely none of it. Bron on LA and LA is at least as good as they are now though in my opinion. Bron is just a beast that can do so much. But Kobe closing ability is so important. I am not sure why it is so important for everyone to feel they need to say one or the other is better. They are both phenominal players. I enjoy watching them both for who they are and doing what they do. The nba is truly where amazing happens, largely because of these two fellas.


Thats the best coach in the league you're talking about.

:LMAO:LMAO:LMAO


Lebron = MVP, 2 All stars, and Coach of the year.
 

royalfan

EOG Dedicated
Re: Must be nice...

Its not even like the Clev supporting cast is asked to do anything semi-difficult. Hit wide open shots that you get because you play with Lebron. These players are just average role players. Not a bit more.


They should be able to get far more layups with some creativity. You got a guy that commands as much attention as he does, there should be point blank shots, not Z cranking up treys from the freaking parking lot. What the hell is that?
 

thekid

EOG Member
Re: Must be nice...

Mike Brown winning coach of the year was truely hilarious. He is clueless on how to stop anyone on the magic.
 

Boston

EOG Dedicated
Re: Must be nice...

Its not even like the Clev supporting cast is asked to do anything semi-difficult. Hit wide open shots that you get because you play with Lebron. These players are just average role players. Not a bit more.


Average role players? You mean the best role players in the league. They have the best record in the nba and lebron did not do that by himself. No player can. They are playing a squad that they don't match up well against. Everyone on the cavs is struggling from the floor including lebron but because of his size he can get to the rack and foul line the other guards can't. Last year ray allen played like dogshit through the playoffs would you call him an average player? All players go through cold streaks but it's difficult to win when it's your entire team struggling. Kobe has a much more talented squad but cleveland has the best role players in the game. They need to knock down those shots but so does lebron. The problem is cleveland can't finish and it has become obvious lebron isn't strong enough to do it by himself
 

babaoriley

EOG Addicted
Re: Must be nice...

Average role players? You mean the best role players in the league. They have the best record in the nba and lebron did not do that by himself. No player can. They are playing a squad that they don't match up well against. Everyone on the cavs is struggling from the floor including lebron but because of his size he can get to the rack and foul line the other guards can't. Last year ray allen played like dogshit through the playoffs would you call him an average player? All players go through cold streaks but it's difficult to win when it's your entire team struggling. Kobe has a much more talented squad but cleveland has the best role players in the game. They need to knock down those shots but so does lebron. The problem is cleveland can't finish and it has become obvious lebron isn't strong enough to do it by himself

Are you watching the same series I am, Boston? Love your analysis usually but I have a couple counterpoints to this argument of yours:

A) Lebron is having trouble making shots? You do realize he's shooting 50.9% from the floor against Orlando, right? That's better than his 48.9% during the regular season and even better than his 50.6% during the Detroit series. Also consider that he's hoisting an average of 6.8 3's a game, connecting at a 33.3% rate and that 51% FG rate is astounding. He's actually shooting nearly 57% on anything inside the arc. Look at his Orlando series averages: 42.3, 7.3, 7.3 on 51%/33%/75% and 1.5 steals/1.25 blocks.

B) His supprting cast sucks, period. They're an overrated bunch on defense and they can't hit open shots to save their lives in this series. A bad game here and there can be forgiven, but this has been an awful series for the Cavs. Good role players needn't be all-stars but by definition, they should excel at their roles on a nightly basis (see Bowen, Bruce for a perfect example).

Consider: Everyone points out that the only game the Cavs won was the game where Lebron scored under 40, the implication being that Lebron's unselfishness/willingness to get everyone involved was a key factor in the win. But check this out, in that game Lebron played more minutes than any other game in this series (other than the OT game) and yet, he totaled only 5 Assists and 4 Rebounds, both series lows, and excepting a Game 2 blowout against Atlanta (where he played only 31 minutes) his lowest totals in either category in the entire playoffs. So does that mean the winning formula is to have Lebron as uninvolved as possible in every aspect of the game? Obviously not. Does that mean that the supporting cast lifted up their games to compensate from the lack of production from Lebron? Yes and No...

On the "yes" side, Z put up 15 boards and really helped to keep Howard in check (Dwight finished with 10 points on 3-8 shooting). They outrebounded Orlando 38-30 and got them on the offensive glass as well.

On the "no" side, all starters not named Lebron totaled 47 points on 18-46 shooting. Read that again for added emphasis. 18 of 46 (39%) for 47 points.

So, the question remains: what was the winning formula for Cleveland in Game 2 (other than that miraculous shot by Lebron to win it)?

- Control the glass. Game 1 rebounding diff. was -3 for Cleveland. Game 2, +8, Game 3, +2, Game 4 +2. They need to control the glass and limit Orlando's 2nd chance points, as often times, an orlando off. rebound results in a 3 or a Howard dunk.

- Win the FT battle: this is multi-faceted... A couple details.
a) Game 1, Orlando shoots 12-14 (86%), Cleveland shoots 12-17 (71%) and Orlando wins by 1.
b) Game 2, Orlando shoots 17-25 (68%), Cleveland shoots 21-26 (81%) and Cleveland wins by 1.
c) Game 3 (with Joey Crawford), Orlando shoots 39-51 (77%) and Cleveland shoots 26-35 (74%) and Orlando wins by 10. I'll break down a couple things from each game in a second, but suffice to say, anytime a team gets to the line 51 times they're going to have an edge, particularly when said team is a jump shooting team that has averaged 22 FT attempts and 27 3-point attempts in the other three games.
d) Orlando shoots 19-27 (70%), Cleveland 30-36 (83%) in a game that Cleveland really should have won. Also, for those alleging official bias in this game, please note that Cleveland's +9 FT attempt margin can easily be explained by the fact that nearly half of orlando's FG attempts (38 of 80) were from behind the arc.

I feel like I've written a thesis on this series by now but let's do a quick breakdown of games:

Game 1: If Lebron gets one iota of help from his supporting cast, the Cavs win. 20-30 shooting? 49-6-8 line? Ridiculous.... His "supporting cast" shot a blistering 23-58 from the field (~40%) and West and Williams combined for a 10-32 (31%), 5-16 (31%) from downtown evening. And yet, if Lewis doesn't hit that crazy 3 or if West hits that wide-open look on the James dish in the closing seconds, the cavs take this game.

Game 2: it's already all been said, but again, the Cavs won despite the supporting cast, not because of it. the cavs did not play particularly well, shooting 45.5% from the field, 26.3% from downtown BUT they outrebounded the Magic by a significant margin and James hit The Shot.

Game 3: cavs win if Orlando doesn't shoot 51 FTs... Or if Z, Delonte and Mo don't combine to go 13-37 (35%) and 4-15 (27%) from downtown... As bad as Lebron's shooting numbers looked: 11-28 (39%), those numbers were made substantially worse by his 1-8 shooting from downtown. He was 50% (10-20) from inside the arc and also got to the line 24 times. Orlando's worst shooting game of the playoffs (42.9%/35.3%) was balanced out by the whopping 51 FT attempts. and the Magic won a game they shouldn't have (and won by 10).

Game 4: Orlando shoots 45% from downtown on 38 attempts. What else needs to be said. Meanwhile, Mo goes 5-15 and yet again leads his team to defeat.

So, again Boston, I think you need to clarify what you mean by "the best role players in the game". good role players hit that shot in game 1 that West missed (think Horry, Kerr, Paxson, Mario Elie, et al.). Good role players may not add a ton to the table but they don't take anything off. The cavs best role player (by the all-star voting standards) hasn't just taken stuff off the table, he's taken the table with him. And he's done it 4 straight games now. Good role players don't play 25 minutes and submit a 0-4-1 line (Pavlovic in game 3). A good role player (C or PF) doesn't play 76 minutes over a 3-game span and put up the following cumulative line: 76 minutes, 17 points, 10 boards, 1 assist, 16 personal fouls. That's the sum of Varejao's contributions the last 3 games. A good role player doesn't have 4 consecutive game of 33% shooting or less on an average of 17.5 attempts per game (Mo Williams). Good role players provide some support and these guys have provided absolutely none.

With that said, it is possible for the Cavs to take these next 3 IF the Cavs role players step it up on both ends of the court. Get Howard in foul trouble. Don't over-rotate on perimeter shooters. Make FTs. Let Lebron do his thing. But for god's sake, help Lebron out just a little...
 

Boston

EOG Dedicated
Re: Must be nice...

Are you watching the same series I am, Boston? Love your analysis usually but I have a couple counterpoints to this argument of yours:

A) Lebron is having trouble making shots? You do realize he's shooting 50.9% from the floor against Orlando, right? That's better than his 48.9% during the regular season and even better than his 50.6% during the Detroit series. Also consider that he's hoisting an average of 6.8 3's a game, connecting at a 33.3% rate and that 51% FG rate is astounding. He's actually shooting nearly 57% on anything inside the arc. Look at his Orlando series averages: 42.3, 7.3, 7.3 on 51%/33%/75% and 1.5 steals/1.25 blocks.

B) His supprting cast sucks, period. They're an overrated bunch on defense and they can't hit open shots to save their lives in this series. A bad game here and there can be forgiven, but this has been an awful series for the Cavs. Good role players needn't be all-stars but by definition, they should excel at their roles on a nightly basis (see Bowen, Bruce for a perfect example).

Consider: Everyone points out that the only game the Cavs won was the game where Lebron scored under 40, the implication being that Lebron's unselfishness/willingness to get everyone involved was a key factor in the win. But check this out, in that game Lebron played more minutes than any other game in this series (other than the OT game) and yet, he totaled only 5 Assists and 4 Rebounds, both series lows, and excepting a Game 2 blowout against Atlanta (where he played only 31 minutes) his lowest totals in either category in the entire playoffs. So does that mean the winning formula is to have Lebron as uninvolved as possible in every aspect of the game? Obviously not. Does that mean that the supporting cast lifted up their games to compensate from the lack of production from Lebron? Yes and No...

On the "yes" side, Z put up 15 boards and really helped to keep Howard in check (Dwight finished with 10 points on 3-8 shooting). They outrebounded Orlando 38-30 and got them on the offensive glass as well.

On the "no" side, all starters not named Lebron totaled 47 points on 18-46 shooting. Read that again for added emphasis. 18 of 46 (39%) for 47 points.

So, the question remains: what was the winning formula for Cleveland in Game 2 (other than that miraculous shot by Lebron to win it)?

- Control the glass. Game 1 rebounding diff. was -3 for Cleveland. Game 2, +8, Game 3, +2, Game 4 +2. They need to control the glass and limit Orlando's 2nd chance points, as often times, an orlando off. rebound results in a 3 or a Howard dunk.

- Win the FT battle: this is multi-faceted... A couple details.
a) Game 1, Orlando shoots 12-14 (86%), Cleveland shoots 12-17 (71%) and Orlando wins by 1.
b) Game 2, Orlando shoots 17-25 (68%), Cleveland shoots 21-26 (81%) and Cleveland wins by 1.
c) Game 3 (with Joey Crawford), Orlando shoots 39-51 (77%) and Cleveland shoots 26-35 (74%) and Orlando wins by 10. I'll break down a couple things from each game in a second, but suffice to say, anytime a team gets to the line 51 times they're going to have an edge, particularly when said team is a jump shooting team that has averaged 22 FT attempts and 27 3-point attempts in the other three games.
d) Orlando shoots 19-27 (70%), Cleveland 30-36 (83%) in a game that Cleveland really should have won. Also, for those alleging official bias in this game, please note that Cleveland's +9 FT attempt margin can easily be explained by the fact that nearly half of orlando's FG attempts (38 of 80) were from behind the arc.

I feel like I've written a thesis on this series by now but let's do a quick breakdown of games:

Game 1: If Lebron gets one iota of help from his supporting cast, the Cavs win. 20-30 shooting? 49-6-8 line? Ridiculous.... His "supporting cast" shot a blistering 23-58 from the field (~40%) and West and Williams combined for a 10-32 (31%), 5-16 (31%) from downtown evening. And yet, if Lewis doesn't hit that crazy 3 or if West hits that wide-open look on the James dish in the closing seconds, the cavs take this game.

Game 2: it's already all been said, but again, the Cavs won despite the supporting cast, not because of it. the cavs did not play particularly well, shooting 45.5% from the field, 26.3% from downtown BUT they outrebounded the Magic by a significant margin and James hit The Shot.

Game 3: cavs win if Orlando doesn't shoot 51 FTs... Or if Z, Delonte and Mo don't combine to go 13-37 (35%) and 4-15 (27%) from downtown... As bad as Lebron's shooting numbers looked: 11-28 (39%), those numbers were made substantially worse by his 1-8 shooting from downtown. He was 50% (10-20) from inside the arc and also got to the line 24 times. Orlando's worst shooting game of the playoffs (42.9%/35.3%) was balanced out by the whopping 51 FT attempts. and the Magic won a game they shouldn't have (and won by 10).

Game 4: Orlando shoots 45% from downtown on 38 attempts. What else needs to be said. Meanwhile, Mo goes 5-15 and yet again leads his team to defeat.

So, again Boston, I think you need to clarify what you mean by "the best role players in the game". good role players hit that shot in game 1 that West missed (think Horry, Kerr, Paxson, Mario Elie, et al.). Good role players may not add a ton to the table but they don't take anything off. The cavs best role player (by the all-star voting standards) hasn't just taken stuff off the table, he's taken the table with him. And he's done it 4 straight games now. Good role players don't play 25 minutes and submit a 0-4-1 line (Pavlovic in game 3). A good role player (C or PF) doesn't play 76 minutes over a 3-game span and put up the following cumulative line: 76 minutes, 17 points, 10 boards, 1 assist, 16 personal fouls. That's the sum of Varejao's contributions the last 3 games. A good role player doesn't have 4 consecutive game of 33% shooting or less on an average of 17.5 attempts per game (Mo Williams). Good role players provide some support and these guys have provided absolutely none.

With that said, it is possible for the Cavs to take these next 3 IF the Cavs role players step it up on both ends of the court. Get Howard in foul trouble. Don't over-rotate on perimeter shooters. Make FTs. Let Lebron do his thing. But for god's sake, help Lebron out just a little...


His supporting cast sucks THIS SERIES. It happens and it's not fair to say his squad is garbage because 3 players have hit a cold streak. These are the same role players that knocked down those shots all season. I don't look at lebrons shooting percentages seriously because he gets so many buckets at the rack. The only reason any of these games has been close is because of their team defense so calling it overrated isn't really fair either. With your three best supporting players shooting at that percentage you should be getting blown out and there not because of solid team defense not because lebron can play 1 on 5. I know everyone would like to say that lebron is the best ever because he carries this bunch of scrubs to the eastern finals but that's not the case. When his team isn't shooting the ball well they lose as seen in this series. So now it is a fact he hasn't done it all himself this season. I don't consider orlando a very good squad compared to either the lakers or the nuggs so it doesn't really matter who wins this series.
 

babaoriley

EOG Addicted
Re: Must be nice...

His supporting cast sucks THIS SERIES. It happens and it's not fair to say his squad is garbage because 3 players have hit a cold streak. These are the same role players that knocked down those shots all season. I don't look at lebrons shooting percentages seriously because he gets so many buckets at the rack. The only reason any of these games has been close is because of their team defense so calling it overrated isn't really fair either. With your three best supporting players shooting at that percentage you should be getting blown out and there not because of solid team defense not because lebron can play 1 on 5. I know everyone would like to say that lebron is the best ever because he carries this bunch of scrubs to the eastern finals but that's not the case. When his team isn't shooting the ball well they lose as seen in this series. So now it is a fact he hasn't done it all himself this season. I don't consider orlando a very good squad compared to either the lakers or the nuggs so it doesn't really matter who wins this series.

Well, we agree to disagree on a couple points then.

I say that the Cavs defense has been not only overrated, but downright bad this series, though I'm not sure how much of that can be pawned off on Mike Brown's coaching. If they went into this series saying, "We're going to take away Dwight Howard and make the other guys beat us" then they deserve to lose and that's what it's looked like thus far. Barkley and the gang were talking about this on the postgame, but in game 1, how in the hell do you justify putting Ben Wallace on Rashard Lewis coming out of that timeout? Honestly, how does that happen? The only thing that kills you at that point is Orlando hitting a 3 and you put a much slower interior defender on Rashard Lewis? We all know what happened. Lewis slipped off a screen, shedded Wallace (who was playing way under Lewis as if forcing him outside) and Lewis buries the game winning 3. Call it bad defense. call it bad coaching. i call it both. If they take that game, this series has a completely different feel to it... Anytime you give up 17 3's on 45% shooting in a game to a team that builds its offense around the 3, you're doing a poor job. That's 51 points courtesy of the 3-ball. Let Howard get the ball, try to get him in foul trouble, put him on the line, and keep the shooters at bay.

And as for Orlando being inferior to LA and denver, I again respectfully disagree.

And to just brush aside the fact that the role players have all been piss poor for 4 consecutive games in the most important series of their season seems to be convenient to your argument. Replace Lebron with, say, Ray Allen or Dirk Nowitski and this team realistically loses 50 games, give or take. This supporting cast succeeded because A) Lebron was that good and B) his terrific play made their jobs easier. They don't need Mo to be regular season Mo to win this series, they just need him to be mediocre Mo. Same with West. Same with Varejao. Same with Z. If they're mediocre on O and bust ass on D, Lebron won't let them lose. At least not tonight.
 

Boston

EOG Dedicated
Re: Must be nice...

does it really matter either team in the west will mop the floor with the magic or cavs in 5-6 tops
 

Boston

EOG Dedicated
Re: Must be nice...

neither team is the cetics of last year and people still gave the celts no shot.
 

shdw01

EOG Dedicated
Re: Must be nice...

holy shit this was a long read...(I didn't)

Lebron vs. Kobe (very debatable)
Phil Jackson >>>>>> Mike Brown (leaps ahead even in PJs old and senile looking days now)
Pau Gasol > any one player on the Cavs

rest of lakers vs rest of cavs - I think if you take out Kobe/Pau/Lebron and have them play, they will be fairly evenly matched with cavs winning a few more.....you add Pau, Lakers win a lot more

still don't think either's supporting cast is all that great.....both these guys made their teams really good....Lebron IMO seems to not be stepping up when he should be (less 1 game winning shot)

I also think Kobe laid low on purpose....he is tired and is trying to catch up on some rest.....
 

babaoriley

EOG Addicted
Re: Must be nice...

Full team effort in Game 5. Role players played like capable NBA players and Lebron was just ridiculous. Anyone else think the Cavs need a miracle game in game 6 to win?

-Mo, West, Varejao and Z combined to go 22-41 from the field for 60 points. Varejao's 8 boards and 2 blocks were every bit as important as Mo's 6 treys. Great, great team effort and yet, it was one of my favorite ex-Longhorns Daniel "Boobie" Gibson who really provided the spark in the 4th quarter as the "spark" guy (Kinda like a Craig Hodges spark). Well played Cavs, and yet they'll need to be even better to take Game 6.
 
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