Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Yeah, I watched your Surrender-Monkey-In-Chief on Fox News.

Props Mark. You deserve a respectful 12io4j2w90 for that portion of your post.

Acknowledging that Barack Obama is "our" President (in contrast to your Prime Minister Harper) is certainly a more friendly way to approach any overall discussion.

:cheers
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Yeah, I watched your Surrender-Monkey-In-Chief on Fox News.

Obama was...well...Obama.

He takes both sides of the issue, commits to neither side and then waits to see what happens. This is what you get when the "Leader of the Free World" :+textinb3 operates without any fundamental guiding principle except "Get Elected" and "Grow Your Power". He should have stood with the protesters and let the world know that when we say we support democracy it means we support democracy and not a bunch of Chicago-like thugs who happen to be in charge of Iran.

Which side does Obama support?

The good guys or bad guys?

I defy anyone to tell me.

The answer is: neither side or both sides.

Obama being Obama...always hedging his bets.

Coward, imbecile, shit-for-brains spineless jellyfish, moral idiot... I'm running out of labels but Iranians (and Israel and the entire middle east) is fucked. :hangt

again with the monkey?? 2348ji23e

You still havent answer the question: what should he have said (or done)?
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

As a Libertarian, I am generally opposed to using American troops in situations where bona fide American interests are not in play. I think Iran is a situation where direct American interests are in play, though. No one can question the national security interest in stabilizing and ensuring our access to energy, and Iran is riding shotgun on the middle eastern oil. But even more critical in my opinion, is the very reasonable inference that the current loons in Tehran would provide assistance to NGOs who would commit a Nuke/Biol/Chem attack on America. I personally think that the mullahs are running a "be careful, we're crazy" game, but the public face on the Iranian government is what we have to act on, and that face would certainly be in favor of a serious attack on America. Thus, the possibility of troop involvement should be on the table, though as set forth above, I don't think such use is warranted as the facts stand at 10 pm central time on June 15, 2009.

And as a response to our keyboard tuffies, I don't for a second think the Iranian people have any hatred for America--no matter how much "fomenting" is attempted. The internet has made the world a smaller, more localized place; don't confuse the actions of a particular government to be that of its people. After all, many of the world's people have given the American people a mulligan for our government's disastrous fuckup in Iraq.
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Manny thinks Barry O should have Ahmanutjob and the Supreme Leader over to the Whitehouse for tea and biscuits 2348ji23e

No slight on Manny. He just believes if you're nice to people they'll be nice to you.
I do agree with him that this just can't be our fight.. First of all, we're still in a fucking fight. Secondly, within the borders we gots lots of issues to handle as well...
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Manny thinks Barry O should have Ahmanutjob and the Supreme Leader over to the Whitehouse for tea and biscuits 2348ji23e

No slight on Manny. He just believes if you're nice to people they'll be nice to you.

Scott, we have our share of friendly smak and jive.

But I'll get a bit stiff here and ask you to provide a cite of me making any such suggestion.

Barry O's likely best interaction with the current(?) Iranian political leadership is best reserved for venues like the UN. And he has respected and qualified emissaries who can do that job in that venue. There's really little need at all for Obama to directly engage with Ahmanutjob, imho
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Astute observation, Mr S

I can't quote the US Constitution word for word, though I'm reasonably familiar with all of its content.

And I'm pretty sure there's no provision therein that calls for the US President to intervene on the democratic elections of other sovereign nations.

Pretty sure? :+textinb3

There's also no provision for "universal health care" and every other illegal entitlement, which proves anti-American drones like you know absolutely NOTHING about constitutional law.
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

That's precisely why we don't have "universal health care" down here in the USA, Mark.

Perhaps you're confusing aspects of the American health care system with the system in your country that includes a more proactive role for the federal government.
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Scott, we have our share of friendly smak and jive.

But I'll get a bit stiff here and ask you to provide a cite of me making any such suggestion.

Barry O's likely best interaction with the current(?) Iranian political leadership is best reserved for venues like the UN. And he has respected and qualified emissaries who can do that job in that venue. There's really little need at all for Obama to directly engage with Ahmanutjob, imho

The UN????????????

:LMAO:LMAO:LMAO:LMAO:LMAO:LMAO:LMAO

 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

again with the monkey?? 2348ji23e

You still havent answer the question: what should he have said (or done)?

You didn't read my post, did you?

I said he should have unequivocally stood with the PEOPLE of Iran AND denounced the current regime AND refused to legitimize this sham election.

At least not ALL Democrats are surrender monkeys...

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Scott L

EOG Enthusiast
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Scott, we have our share of friendly smak and jive.

But I'll get a bit stiff here and ask you to provide a cite of me making any such suggestion.

Barry O's likely best interaction with the current(?) Iranian political leadership is best reserved for venues like the UN. And he has respected and qualified emissaries who can do that job in that venue. There's really little need at all for Obama to directly engage with Ahmanutjob, imho

Steve I was just teasing you. One of the writers in an article previously linked in this thread said, "Obama's life just became a whole lot tougher." I wouldn't want to be in his shoes right now. I know you would because you think Michelle has a nice ass 2938u4ji23

And no, I can't site you for making any such suggestion. You and I disagree on issues of American security where you are Left and I am on the Right. But our similarities are much more evident than our differences. You are Left on most other issues and I am Center-Left on most of those as well.

My first statement [the smak] was no indication of how I really feel. The second one was, the part about if you're nice to people they will be nice to you. The truth is Steve, I wish a whole lot more people were like you!
 

Scott L

EOG Enthusiast
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Yeah the only thing that happens when the UN gets involved in any situation is the death toll rises.

Besides, "UN monitors" don't have the balls to go anywhere unless they can "document" Israeli counterfire. The Hez and Hamas end up hijacking all their aid anyway.
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Steve I was just teasing you. One of the writers in an article previously linked in this thread said, "Obama's life just became a whole lot tougher." I wouldn't want to be in his shoes right now. I know you would because you think Michelle has a nice ass 2938u4ji23

And no, I can't site you for making any such suggestion. You and I disagree on issues of American security where you are Left and I am on the Right. But our similarities are much more evident than our differences. You are Left on most other issues and I am Center-Left on most of those as well.

My first statement [the smak] was no indication of how I really feel. The second one was, the part about if you're nice to people they will be nice to you. The truth is Steve, I wish a whole lot more people were like you!
hey, this isnt a gay porn site.. this is a thread about the people of iran. :LMAO
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

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Protesters plan more mass rallies in Iran...
Hardliners Open Fire...
Speed of vote count called suspicious...
TWITTER streams break news dam...
ROUND-UP OF UPRISING: PHOTOS, VIDEOS...
WIRE: No-win situation for Obama team on Iran...

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Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

You didn't read my post, did you?

I said he should have unequivocally stood with the PEOPLE of Iran AND denounced the current regime AND refused to legitimize this sham election.

At least not ALL Democrats are surrender monkeys...

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so, to add to the ridiculous mistakes of the previous administration, you suggest President Obama do the same thing blindly that got us into a war? You suggest some sort of machismo action of aggression without actually having any form of proof (although you may be and probably are correct about the election) that your accusations are valid for what purpose?? And what does that solve if he were to do that?

Joe Cardashian, sounds like from your perspective, every solution to any problem we ever have is to "go over and kick some ass"... Show'em how big your balls are and bomb the fuck out of em if they dont suck on them... Repeat Bush's horrendous fuckup, why in the world would a rational human do the exact same thing again?
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

so, to add to the ridiculous mistakes of the previous administration, you suggest President Obama do the same thing blindly that got us into a war? You suggest some sort of machismo action of aggression without actually having any form of proof (although you may be and probably are correct about the election) that your accusations are valid for what purpose?? And what does that solve if he were to do that?

Joe Cardashian, sounds like from your perspective, every solution to any problem we ever have is to "go over and kick some ass"... Show'em how big your balls are and bomb the fuck out of em if they dont suck on them... Repeat Bush's horrendous fuckup, why in the world would a rational human do the exact same thing again?

I'm not suggesting a full blown out war, although that's exactly where Hussein's cowardice is going to lead us...

There are many ways to undermine an illegitimate regime.

For example, Iran has smuggled IEDs, etc. into Iraq which have killed our troops.

We should return the favor by smuggling massive amounts of guns and ammo to these protesters. It would be interesting to see the outcome of this uprising if Iranians were armed. :thumbsup

I can promise you this: if Hussein sits back and does absolutely nothing, you will see massive bloodshed on the streets of Tehran -- and probably a war with Israel.

Moreover, if the Islamic regime manage to hold onto power, it will be in no mood to -- if I can borrow Hussein's imbecilic term -- "engage" anyone with regards to nuclear disarmament.

As Michael Totten so eloquently put it earlier today, the idea that Iran's prepared to give up its nuclear program for any sort of concession is "delusion on stilts."

Roll the dice, Barry. Fight now or fight later.
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

I think this is an interesting take on the spoils of "victory" to the "Election" victor.. seemingly from a standpoint of more time to develop more momentum for a uniformed resistance: (from a blogger on Thomas Barnett's website)

This questionable Ahmadinejad 'victory' may be much worse for him and the Supreme Leader than a close victory for an opponent.
That individual would be vulnerable to undermining by the carry over establishment crowd, accusations of being another Western stooge, and all his actions would be picked apart for possible harm or error.


Posted by Louis Heberlein

What do you think?
 

Scott L

EOG Enthusiast
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

There will always be blame and hate toward the West regardless of who is in power in a dictatorship, because the goal of the regime is to remain in power, and blaming the West for all your failings is a functional way of distracting from the fact that your subjects live on the ground with a boot on their throat.
 

scrimmage

What you contemplate you imitate
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Another color-coded revolution[green this time],with protests instigated,supported,and financed by whom?
A sudden mainstream media frenzy of coverage on the Iranian elections?Is it because they're so telegenic,or to spin viewers opinions in a certain direction.
Does the U.S. empire have a benevolent interest promoting democracy for Iran,or anyone else?That's just a cover in order to get what's needed to maintain the "American way of life".
It's funny how a candidate like Mir-Hossein Mousavi,has so much support simply for being the lesser of 2 evils,sound familiar?
Below some reads on the subject:

Back to basics. An Iranian civics lesson, in comic form, for those who are just getting interested in this.BBC has an interactive version at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8051750.stm
Iran?s Election: None of America?s Business
So far, we're staying out of it ? but for how much longer?
by Justin Raimondo, June 15, 2009

Excerpt from:
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2009/06/14/irans-election-none-of-americas-business/

Whenever there are election "irregularities" anywhere outside the U.S., American government officials have a bad habit of getting up on their high horses and lecturing the rest of the world on how best to conduct their own internal affairs. Never mind that the U.S. itself has only two officially recognized political parties, both of which are subsidized with tax dollars, and that any potential rivals must jump through a number of hoops to even get on the ballot. We?re a legend in our own minds ? the world?s greatest "democracy" ? and anyone who questions this dubious claim is immediately charged with "anti-Americanism."

Yet even if that were not the case ? even if our democratic procedures were flawless ? that still wouldn?t give the U.S. government any standing to pass judgment, because how Iran conducts its presidential elections is not a legitimate concern of the U.S. government. The idea that the occupant of the Oval Office must pass moral judgment on all events, including other countries? elections, is a byproduct of America?s imperial pretensions and delusions of "world leadership."

The Israel lobby, which has been pushing for a U.S. confrontation with Iran, is revving up its engines even now to push harder for increased sanctions and other provocative moves by the U.S. Obama, I fear, will prove unable to resist all that pressure, though I?d love to be proven wrong.

Dashing Fabricated Hopes:
The Meaning of Ahmadinejad's Victory

By Pierre Tristam
June 14, 2009
Excerpt from:
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22830.htm

So why was the West so self-deluded, both about Mousavi and the outcome of a foregone conclusion? I wish it was about misplaced hopes. No. It's something less honorable than that. It's about misplaced projections. It's about presuming that the West's agenda for Iran can somehow muscle its way over the agenda Iran reserves for itself. It's about reverting to pre-1979 assumptions that Iran would be as the West would want it to be. Which is to say that 30 years of history have taught the West next to nothing about Iran. That ignorance, those attitudes, those presumptions, are precisely why Iranians are still ready to vote for a man like Ahmadinejad, because for all his anti-Semitism anti, his belligerence, even his apparent stupidity on more than a few matters of state, he is the embodiment of an Iranian identity that brooks no imports, that needs no one else, certainly nothing western, not even (and above all not) Barack Obama, to define it. Mousavi would likely have been no different ideologically, but why chuck off a known quantity?

Reactionary editorial pages (what pages are left, anyway) will fold all over each other to claim that Iranians have embraced hate, that they've endorsed the destruction of Israel, that they've made their hostility clear. Stupid judgments, as I see them, if excusably America-centric: they're meant well. But they miss the point.

The point never has been for Iran to get a leadership the United States can deal with. That's the American perspective that's led nowhere for 30 years. The point is to get a leadership in the West willing to deal with whatever leadership Iran chooses for itself, on its own terms.

So here's where Obama's Norwuz message will prove its worth (or not). Here's where Obama gets to show the Iranian people that he meant what he said. That he wants a dialogue, not just with the Iranian people, but with the Iranian leadership. Especially one chosen by the Iranian people. (At some point all those allegations of fraud are going to have to make way for the reality: if the United States could survive the fraud of 2000, so can Iran in 2009, though chances are Iran's fraud is less obvious than that of Bush v. Gore).

Obama can, of course, punt. Decide that he now has an excuse not to deal with Iran. But he doesn't. He has even less of an excuse today than he did yesterday. Unless he wants to play the fraudulent-election card and go down that slink to perdition. Somehow I can't imagine him doing that. I can't imagine him thinking that he would be dealing with anyone but Ahmadinejad after the election anyway: he knew that bumping off Ahmadinejad was a long shot. He knew, or should have known, that even if Mousavi would have replaced him, the policy differences would have been nil. At least Ahmadinejad gives Obama, as Ahmadinejad does Khamenei, a foil, if things go wrong. And Ahmadinejad, freed of a elections' burden, could maybe find his inner Nixon and make the leap across ideologies.
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

A Revolutionary Mass in the Streets of Tehran

Michael J. Totten - 06.16.2009 - 6:38 AM Michael Ledeen published a must-read analysis:
To start with, the BBC, long considered a shill for the regime by most Iranian dissidents, estimates between one and two million Tehranis demonstrated against the regime on Monday. That?s a big number. So we can say that, at least for the moment, there is a revolutionary mass in the streets of Tehran. There are similar reports from places like Tabriz and Isfahan, so it?s nationwide.
For its part, the regime ordered its (Basij and imported Hezbollah) thugs to open fire on the demonstrators. The Guardian, whose reporting from Iran has always been very good (three correspondents expelled in the last ten years, they tell me), thinks that a dozen or so were killed on Monday. And the reports of brutal assaults against student dormitories in several cities are horrifying, even by the mullahs? low standards.
[?]
What?s going to happen?, you ask. Nobody knows, even the major actors. The regime has the guns, and the opposition has the numbers. The question is whether the numbers can be successfully organized into a disciplined force that demands the downfall of the regime. Yes, I know that there have been calls for a new election, or a runoff between Mousavi and Ahmadinezhad. But I don?t think that?s very likely now. The tens of millions of Iranians whose pent-up rage has driven them to risk life and limb against their oppressors are not likely to settle for a mere change in personnel at this point. And the mullahs surely know that if they lose, many of them will face a very nasty and very brief future.
If the disciplined force comes into being, the regime will fall.


http://www.commentarymagazine.com/b...ry/contentions/contentions?author_name=totten

 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

June, 15, 2009 — nicedeb Pics from protests in Iran via The Goldfarb on Twitter:

Smoke billows from a burning car as supporters of defeated Iranian presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi attack a local base of the Islamic Basij militia. AFP PHOTO/STR. AFP. WAR.
Protesters attack a building of pro-government militia near a rally supporting leading opposition presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi in Tehran. (AP Photo/Vahid Salemi).
http://nicedeb.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/this-wont-end-well/

 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

A Revolutionary Mass in the Streets of Tehran

Michael J. Totten - 06.16.2009 - 6:38 AM Michael Ledeen published a must-read analysis:
To start with, the BBC, long considered a shill for the regime by most Iranian dissidents, estimates between one and two million Tehranis demonstrated against the regime on Monday. That?s a big number. So we can say that, at least for the moment, there is a revolutionary mass in the streets of Tehran. There are similar reports from places like Tabriz and Isfahan, so it?s nationwide.
For its part, the regime ordered its (Basij and imported Hezbollah) thugs to open fire on the demonstrators. The Guardian, whose reporting from Iran has always been very good (three correspondents expelled in the last ten years, they tell me), thinks that a dozen or so were killed on Monday. And the reports of brutal assaults against student dormitories in several cities are horrifying, even by the mullahs? low standards.
[?]
What?s going to happen?, you ask. Nobody knows, even the major actors. The regime has the guns, and the opposition has the numbers. The question is whether the numbers can be successfully organized into a disciplined force that demands the downfall of the regime. Yes, I know that there have been calls for a new election, or a runoff between Mousavi and Ahmadinezhad. But I don?t think that?s very likely now. The tens of millions of Iranians whose pent-up rage has driven them to risk life and limb against their oppressors are not likely to settle for a mere change in personnel at this point. And the mullahs surely know that if they lose, many of them will face a very nasty and very brief future.
If the disciplined force comes into being, the regime will fall.


http://www.commentarymagazine.com/b...ry/contentions/contentions?author_name=totten


2 million pissed off people with any level of organization = big trouble ...

I guess stay tuned.
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

I wouldn't want to be in his shoes right now. I know you would because you think Michelle has a nice ass 2938u4ji23

The second one was, the part about if you're nice to people they will be nice to you. The truth is Steve, I wish a whole lot more people were like you!

**Okay...hook me up with an evening out with MichelleO and all is forgiven

**I'm doing my best to increase membership in the NicePeopleKlub
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Reagan didn?t remain silent on Poland

posted at 11:34 am on June 16, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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In mid-December 1981, the Polish government declared martial law, hoping to suppress the Solidarity uprising that started in Gdansk earlier that year. The Soviet puppet Wojciech Jaruzelski imprisoned thousands, including Solidarity leader Lech Walesa, and attempted to suppress self-determination by the Poles through force and intimidation. Then-President Ronald Reagan immediately reacted to the imposition of martial law by publicizing his conversation with Pope John Paul II the next day (emphases mine):
The President. ?Your Holiness, I want you to know how deeply we feel about the situation in your homeland.?
?I look forward to the time when we can meet in person.?
?Our sympathies are with the people, not the government.?
Three days later, Reagan made his point crystal clear in a press conference:
All the information that we have confirms that the imposition of martial law in Poland has led to the arrest and confinement, in prisons and detention camps, of thousands of Polish trade union leaders and intellectuals. Factories are being seized by security forces and workers beaten.

These acts make plain there?s been a sharp reversal of the movement toward a freer society that has been underway in Poland for the past year and a half. Coercion and violation of human rights on a massive scale have taken the place of negotiation and compromise. All of this is in gross violation of the Helsinki Pact, to which Poland is a signatory.

It would be naive to think this could happen without the full knowledge and the support of the Soviet Union. We?re not naive. We view the current situation in Poland in the gravest of terms, particularly the increasing use of force against an unarmed population and violations of the basic civil rights of the Polish people.

Violence invites violence and threatens to plunge Poland into chaos. We call upon all free people to join in urging the Government of Poland to reestablish conditions that will make constructive negotiations and compromise possible.

Certainly, it will be impossible for us to continue trying to help Poland solve its economic problems while martial law is imposed on the people of Poland, thousands are imprisoned, and the legal rights of free trade unions ? previously granted by the government ? are now denied. We?ve always been ready to do our share to assist Poland in overcoming its economic difficulties, but only if the Polish people are permitted to resolve their own problems free of internal coercion and outside intervention.

Our nation was born in resistance to arbitrary power and has been repeatedly enriched by immigrants from Poland and other great nations of Europe. So we feel a special kinship with the Polish people in their struggle against Soviet opposition to their reforms.

The Polish nation, speaking through Solidarity, has provided one of the brightest, bravest moments of modern history. The people of Poland are giving us an imperishable example of courage and devotion to the values of freedom in the face of relentless opposition. Left to themselves, the Polish people would enjoy a new birth of freedom. But there are those who oppose the idea of freedom, who are intolerant of national independence, and hostile to the European values of democracy and the rule of law.

Two Decembers ago, freedom was lost in Afghanistan; this Christmas, it?s at stake in Poland. But the torch of liberty is hot. It warms those who hold it high. It burns those who try to extinguish it.
Note what Reagan did not do. He didn?t say we needed to declare war on Poland, the reductio ad absurdum offered as a criticism of conservatives by progressives intent on defending Barack Obama?s weak response. Reagan kept his options close to the vest, both in this statement and during the subsequent questions asked by reporters at the presser. Reagan chose to stand for freedom and to publicly support those taking great physical risks in demanding it, keeping the pressure on the oppressors.

Compare that to the reaction that came three days later from Barack Obama during a somewhat similar (although not completely analogous) crisis in Iran:
Obviously all of us have been watching the news from Iran. And I want to start off by being very clear that it is up to Iranians to make decisions about who Iran?s leaders will be; that we respect Iranian sovereignty and want to avoid the United States being the issue inside of Iran, which sometimes the United States can be a handy political football ? or discussions with the United States.

Having said all that, I am deeply troubled by the violence that I?ve been seeing on television. I think that the democratic process ? free speech, the ability of people to peacefully dissent ? all those are universal values and need to be respected. And whenever I see violence perpetrated on people who are peacefully dissenting, and whenever the American people see that, I think they?re, rightfully, troubled.

My understanding is, is that the Iranian government says that they are going to look into irregularities that have taken place. We weren?t on the ground, we did not have observers there, we did not have international observers on hand, so I can?t state definitively one way or another what happened with respect to the election.

But what I can say is that there appears to be a sense on the part of people who were so hopeful and so engaged and so committed to democracy who now feel betrayed. And I think it?s important that, moving forward, whatever investigations take place are done in a way that is not resulting in bloodshed and is not resulting in people being stifled in expressing their views.

Now, with respect to the United States and our interactions with Iran, I?ve always believed that as odious as I consider some of President Ahmadinejad?s statements, as deep as the differences that exist between the United States and Iran on a range of core issues, that the use of tough, hard-headed diplomacy ? diplomacy with no illusions about Iran and the nature of the differences between our two countries ? is critical when it comes to pursuing a core set of our national security interests, specifically, making sure that we are not seeing a nuclear arms race in the Middle East triggered by Iran obtaining a nuclear weapon; making sure that Iran is not exporting terrorist activity. Those are core interests not just to the United States but I think to a peaceful world in general.

We will continue to pursue a tough, direct dialogue between our two countries, and we?ll see where it takes us. But even as we do so, I think it would be wrong for me to be silent about what we?ve seen on the television over the last few days.

And what I would say to those people who put so much hope and energy and optimism into the political process, I would say to them that the world is watching and inspired by their participation, regardless of what the ultimate outcome of the election was. And they should know that the world is watching.

And particularly to the youth of Iran, I want them to know that we in the United States do not want to make any decisions for the Iranians, but we do believe that the Iranian people and their voices should be heard and respected.
Reagan took a stand on freedom, where Obama sounds desperate for engagement with the forces of oppression. Germany?s Angela Merkel took a much tougher stand than Obama did, calling the oppression ?totally unacceptable,? while all Obama can say is that it?s ?deeply troubling?.

It?s the difference between leadership and management. Reagan led, and he inspired the Poles to continue the struggle that eventually helped free half of Europe from iron-fisted domination by the Soviet Union. Obama wants to manage the crisis to keep from having to lead. Big, big difference.
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Reagan didn?t remain silent on Poland

posted at 11:34 am on June 16, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
<SMALL>Send to a Friend | Share on Facebook | printer-friendly </SMALL>

In mid-December 1981, the Polish government declared martial law, hoping to suppress the Solidarity uprising that started in Gdansk earlier that year. The Soviet puppet Wojciech Jaruzelski imprisoned thousands, including Solidarity leader Lech Walesa, and attempted to suppress self-determination by the Poles through force and intimidation. Then-President Ronald Reagan immediately reacted to the imposition of martial law by publicizing his conversation with Pope John Paul II the next day (emphases mine):Three days later, Reagan made his point crystal clear in a press conference:
Note what Reagan did not do. He didn?t say we needed to declare war on Poland, the reductio ad absurdum offered as a criticism of conservatives by progressives intent on defending Barack Obama?s weak response. Reagan kept his options close to the vest, both in this statement and during the subsequent questions asked by reporters at the presser. Reagan chose to stand for freedom and to publicly support those taking great physical risks in demanding it, keeping the pressure on the oppressors.

Compare that to the reaction that came three days later from Barack Obama during a somewhat similar (although not completely analogous) crisis in Iran:Reagan took a stand on freedom, where Obama sounds desperate for engagement with the forces of oppression. Germany?s Angela Merkel took a much tougher stand than Obama did, calling the oppression ?totally unacceptable,? while all Obama can say is that it?s ?deeply troubling?.

It?s the difference between leadership and management. Reagan led, and he inspired the Poles to continue the struggle that eventually helped free half of Europe from iron-fisted domination by the Soviet Union. Obama wants to manage the crisis to keep from having to lead. Big, big difference.
nice semantics argument, canadian. :LMAOwe don't need to lead the struggle, this is for the people of iran to lead and sort out. it isn't obama's duty to lead ... he did everything perfect in that 5 minute segment and you can't deal with it.
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

nice semantics argument, canadian. :LMAOwe don't need to lead the struggle, this is for the people of iran to lead and sort out. it isn't obama's duty to lead ... he did everything perfect in that 5 minute segment and you can't deal with it.

 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

To equate Poland of 30 years ago with current Iran demonstrates a shocking lack of reasoning ability or any sense of discernment. Though there are numerous distinctions between the two situations, primarily, the Poles did not refer to the United States as the "Great Satan" and the Polish regime of the era did not begin and end its day with diatribes against America. For the United States to come out publicly in favor of the Iranian opposition at this point in time would be the kiss of death for the opposition. Contrary to what the novice or naive may think, doing nothing overt at this point in time is doing something, and John Wayne never really had to storm the beaches.
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Some info on the Iranian military and militia:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.c...ontrols-irans-military-and-how-big-is-it.html
___________________________________________

Who Controls Iran's Military And How Big Is It?

<!-- sphereit start --> NIAC passes along this graphic from RAND (pdf):

Here is a little bit on the Basij from the report:

[T]here are some indications that the Basij?many of whom are drawn from the ranks of Iran?s disaffected youth and elderly pensioners?hold cynical or ambivalent views of this ideological training. Basij training is frequently necessary for certain social benefits?loans, university scholarships, welfare subsidies, and the like. As stated by one 24-year-old member in a 2005 interview, ?The only reason I stay in the Basij is for the money . . . many of my friends in the Basij are unhappy with the government.?

Compounding this reported cynicism, there appears to be a rural-urban split in public perceptions of the Basij, noted in a previous RAND study and reinforced to us in 2006 by a longtime visitor to the Islamic Republic. In the provinces, the Basij present a more benign face through construction projects and disaster relief, while in urban areas, they are more apt to be seen quite negatively, quashing civil society activities, arresting dissidents, and confronting reformist student groups on campuses. Urban sentiments may be, moreover, affected by the Basij?s affilia-tion with the ?pressure groups? or hardline vigilantes, of which Ansar-e Hezbollah is the most widely known.
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

To equate Poland of 30 years ago with current Iran demonstrates a shocking lack of reasoning ability or any sense of discernment. Though there are numerous distinctions between the two situations, primarily, the Poles did not refer to the United States as the "Great Satan" and the Polish regime of the era did not begin and end its day with diatribes against America. For the United States to come out publicly in favor of the Iranian opposition at this point in time would be the kiss of death for the opposition. Contrary to what the novice or naive may think, doing nothing overt at this point in time is doing something, and John Wayne never really had to storm the beaches.

As the dead bodies start piling up in the streets of Tehran and Islamonazis strengthen their grip on power, this thread will make a great *bump* as it will become apparent to all but the most blind Hussein bootlickers that the Surrender Monkey in Chief totally pissed away a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

 

scrimmage

What you contemplate you imitate
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Iran,more jockeying for position in the competition for finite global resources.
If in Iran's case, a "Guardian Council" determines the candidates who can run for elected office,can Mir-Hossein Mousavi,and his supporters really be considered an "opposition"?
"Green" is trendy these days,the Iranian color coded revolution should play well.
Green shoots,spontaneous,or instigated?Obama's not so overt,but there's always the covert going on we aren't supposed to worry about,doesn't mean nothings happening,it just isn't so obvious.
How long does the center hold?

It's Official -- The Era of Cheap Oil Is Over

Energy Department Changes Tune on Peak Oil
June 15, 2009
By Michael T. Klare
"Quote" excerpts from:
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13980

...the usually optimistic analysts at the Department of Energy now believe global fuel supplies will simply not be able to keep pace with rising world energy demands. For years now, assorted petroleum geologists and other energy types have been warning that world oil output is approaching a maximum sustainable daily level -- a peak -- and will subsequently go into decline, possibly producing global economic chaos. Whatever the timing of the arrival of peak oil's actual peak, there is growing agreement that we have, at last, made it into peak-oil territory, if not yet to the moment of irreversible decline.

...China would eventually overtake the United States as number one energy consumer. What's notable is how quickly the 2009 edition expects that to happen. The 2006 report had China assuming the leadership position in a 2026-2030 timeframe; in 2007, it was 2021-2024; in 2008, it was 2016-2020. This year, the EIA is projecting that China will overtake the United States between 2010 and 2014.
It's easy enough to overlook these shifting estimates, since the reports don't emphasize how they have changed from year to year. What they suggest, however, is that the United States will face ever fiercer competition from China in the global struggle to secure adequate supplies of energy to meet national needs.

Given what we have learned about the dwindling prospects for adequate future oil supplies, we are sure to face increased geopolitical competition and strife between the two countries in those few areas that are capable of producing additional quantities of oil (and undoubtedly genuine desperation among many other countries with far less resources and power).

And much else follows: As the world's leading energy consumer, Beijing will undoubtedly play a far more critical role in setting international energy policies and prices, undercutting the pivotal role long played by Washington. It is not hard to imagine, then, that major oil producers in the Middle East and Africa will see it as in their interest to deepen political and economic ties with China at the expense of the United States. China can also be expected to maintain close ties with oil providers like Iran and Sudan, no matter how this clashes with American foreign policy objectives.

The global energy equation is changing rapidly, and with it is likely to come great power competition, economic peril, rising starvation,growing unrest, environmental disaster, and shrinking energy supplies, no matter what steps are taken. ... but the new trends in energy on the planet are already increasingly evident -- and unsettling.


 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Mark, will this Thread become as great a Bump thread as all the ones where you've predicted election outcomes and were on the wrong side each time?
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

I can't get enough of this. Another website with contributors from the inside:
http://raymankojast.blogspot.com/

Special Forces Protect Demonstrators from Basij

Extraordinary scenes: Robert Fisk in Iran

The long-standing Middle East correspondent for The Independent, Robert Fisk, is defying the government crackdown on foreign media reporting in Iran.
As he explains, he has been travelling around the streets of Tehran all day and most of the night and things are far from quiet:
I've just been witnessing a confrontation, in dusk and into the night, between about 15,000 supporters of Ahmadinejad - supposedly the president of Iran - who are desperate to down the supporters of Mr Mousavi, who thinks he should be the president of Iran.
There were about 10,000 Mousavi men and women on the streets, with approximately 500 Iranian special forces, trying to keep them apart.
It was interesting that the special forces - who normally take the side of Ahmadinejad's Basij militia - were there with clubs and sticks in their camouflage trousers and their purity white shirts and on this occasion the Iranian military kept them away from Mousavi's men and women.
In fact at one point, Mousavi's supporters were shouting 'thank you, thank you' to the soldiers.
One woman went up to the special forces men, who normally are very brutal with Mr Mousavi's supporters, and said 'can you protect us from the Basij?' He said 'with God's help'.
 

mr merlin

EOG Master
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

I bet the protesters are really being bucked up be obamas strong words of support.
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Had to know it was just a matter of time before Joe Cuckold and Scrimmage fucked up the thread with Cut-and-pastes... when you have nothing to say, just find an article where someone else does and plaster it.
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

The protest is tending toward the Gandhi model of non-violence. The tactic was successful and India was freed only because the occupying force (British Army) had a moral code which would not allow them to fire on unarmed, peaceful protesters. The $64,000 question in Iran is whether the Revolutionary Guards and militias of the mullahs have the same scruples as the British Army did in India. Where the forces with the guns will fire on peaceful protesters, revolutions are strangled in the crib--Hungary; Prague; and Tiananman Square are recent examples. . .

Some more of the very recent feed from niac:

http://niacblog.wordpress.com/

____________________________________________________



6:40 pm: Karroubi issued a statement today [Farsi] inviting people to participate in Friday demonstrations starting from Hafte Tir Sq. and to attend the Friday prayer at 11am. He has asked people to wear black.
Karroubi accuses the government of betraying the people’s trust and praises the silent demonstrations, saying “silence is full of untold stories.”
Karroubi then had even stronger words:
“Those who are bothered by the greatness of such a civil behavior tried to blame the fires and other destruction on the nation and supporters of reform. They are masters in engineering trouble, as they are masters in engineering elections, and in the process, they murdered a group of our countrymen. I express my condolences for these murders… They [the vigilantes] try to scare people and ignore their protests by censoring the media and showing propaganda…
Karroubi, invited people to continue their participation and warned against plots by suspicious individuals to turn peaceful demonstrations violent. “Their ultimate goal is ending the presence of this great nation. Do not hesitate to participate.” In the end, Karroubi said he will not recognize Ahmadinejad as the president of the Islamic Republic of Iran.
6:13 pm: A friend of NIAC, who had been scheduled to leave Iran tells us why he has decided to stay:
I can’t leave here with all this stuff going on. I’d feel like a coward. I went today with our family friends to the huge protest in Meydoon-e-Haft-e-Tir today. I don’t know if you’ve seen the footage but the crowd was HUGE. Mousavi, Karroubi (who I saw) and all these movie stars were there too. At night the whole city was filled with people saying Allah o Akbar and even some creative slogans “Rahbar-e-maa olagh-e vah yek dastesh ham cholaq-eh.” ["Our leader is a donkey..." - the rest isn't politically correct.] Yesterday we didn’t get the word fast enough of where Mousavi’s protest got moved to so we almost got beaten up by these Basij even though my 9 y/o cousin was with us….we had to run into this pharmacy to get away from them AND we didn’t even have any pictures of Mousavi or anything. Anyway…. regardless of what happens, Iran will be completely different when all this settles.”
5:50 pm:There has been concern amongst our readers about a previous blog post that mentioned the full name of two Iranian Twitter accounts – twitter.com/IranBaan and twitter.com/gkarbaschi.
NIAC wants all readers to know that both Twitters were designed as public resources – no one with a secret identity was mentioned. “Gkarbaschi” is Gholamhossein Karbaschi, who set up an official campaign blog for reformist candidate Mehdi Karroubi. “IranBaan” is Fereshteh Ghazi, a prominent human rights activist who lists her full name, occupation, and a nice picture on her Twitter account.
NIAC would never publish the identity of secret Twitters coming from Iran. Those two Twitterers were brave individuals who chose to make their names, occupations, and even a digital picture available for all to see with a click of the mouse.
4:43 pm: Iranian Americans are continuing their demonstrations throughout the country in the Where is my vote? campaign. Rallies will be held today in Los Angeles, Seattle, and DC.
The Los Angeles Rally will be located in front of Los Angeles Federal Building Wilshire and Veteran from 5pm- 8pm
Seattle Rally: Location at 2001 6th Ave # 2323, Seattle, WA 98121 at 7pm
DC Rally: Located at the Iran Interest Section at 6pm
4:30 pm: Mousavi: Participate in Friday demonstrations and mourning (translated from: http://mowj.ir/ShowNews.php?7250)

Mousavi issued a new statement today encouraging the people to show their sympathy to families of those martyred during the recent events by attending Friday prayers and peaceful demonstrations. He also asked the security forces to confront the armed un-uniformed vigilantes.
After expressing his condolence to the families of the martyrs and those wounded, Mousavi said “I ask everyone to participate in gatherings in mosques or peaceful demonstrations on Friday afternoon in any way they can and show their sympathy to the victims’ families. It is evident that I will be participating myself.”
4:27 pm: State Department officials have denied any attempt to interfere in Iran’s election aftermath after hearing Iran’s diplomatic complaint:
State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley responded to the allegation by telling reporters that the U.S. is withholding judgment about whether last week’s presidential election was conducted fairly. He said the U.S. is not interfering in Iranian internal affairs.
3:58 pm: Again from Fereshteh Ghazi:
A confirmed source has told us the Interior Ministry has refused Mohsen Rezaie’s request to announce the results of the recount by the end of today. Hence Rezaie wil officially announce his call for invalidating the elections and calling a new election tomorrow.
3:50: pm From twitter.com/IranBaan: Ghazi mentions that the Interior Ministry’s Electoral Commission has said that the contents of the individual ballot boxes cannot be revealed to Presidential candidates by law. In other words, the Electoral Commission will not let any of the candidates know the official results. Perhaps a face-saving way for the government to refuse independent inspection of the recount by any of the candidates.
3:32 pm: A group Twitter from Tehran University – which described a lot of the recent events on the ground, in real-time – posted an image with the caption “this is our wish to end this way.”
3:06 pm: CNN reports on violence that has occurred in Tehran and which appears to be spreading to other parts of the country:
Reports of violence came from outside Tehran as well. One video was posted by a person who said he had received it anonymously from a Twitter feed. It showed several people wounded by apparent gunshots, and people attempting to treat them, seemingly without medical supplies. The poster said the video was shot in Esfahan, a city about 200 miles (320 kilometers) south of Tehran.
‘We are fighting with our lives and the world is just watching,’ said Ali, a Tehran University student who asked that his full name not be used. ‘They see how the government is trying to silence us, how they are beating us — but they don’t come to our help. It’s OK. We will succeed, even if we have to fight alone.’
3:03 pm: Amazing video of the protests via Andrew Sullivan:

<object height="350" width="425">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/41pvvdKN8mA&rel=1&fs=1&showsearch=0&hd=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" wmode="transparent" height="350" width="425"> </object>​
</p>​
2:05 pm: The BBC is reporting that newspaper editor Saeed Laylaz and Hamid Reza Jalaipour, an activist and journalist, were arrested on Wednesday morning. Laylaz is a political and economic analyst, relied upon heavily by the Washington policy community, who had ties to the Mousavi campaign.
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

The protest is tending toward the Gandhi model of non-violence. The tactic was successful and India was freed only because the occupying force (British Army) had a moral code which would not allow them to fire on unarmed, peaceful protesters. The $64,000 question in Iran is whether the Revolutionary Guards and militias of the mullahs have the same scruples as the British Army did in India. Where the forces with the guns will fire on peaceful protesters, revolutions are strangled in the crib--Hungary; Prague; and Tiananman Square are recent examples. . .

quote]

no way.. they will never give in without bringing all the fury.. imo.. doesn't it seem to you they are destined, eventually, for a gruesome battle?
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Like many totalitarian regimes, it seems that there are a lot of organizations in Iran that are authorized and equipped to commit deadly violence (division of power). An example: the regular police now appear in some instances to be running interference for the opposition protesters against the Basij. If any of the entities which are armed commit to protecting the nascent reform movement, I can see either of two divergent directions: a collapse of the incumbent government under a tidal wave of popular rejection, or organized, violent civil war as the armed professionals pick and choose opposite sides. . .In other words; it's too early to tell. . .
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Like many totalitarian regimes, it seems that there are a lot of organizations in Iran that are authorized and equipped to commit deadly violence (division of power). An example: the regular police now appear in some instances to be running interference for the opposition protesters against the Basij. If any of the entities which are armed commit to protecting the nascent reform movement, I can see either of two divergent directions: a collapse of the incumbent government under a tidal wave of popular rejection, or organized, violent civil war as the armed professionals pick and choose opposite sides. . .In other words; it's too early to tell. . .
i guess. it just feel like no one will budge here to me.
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Some techno-speak from a pro regarding the possibilities:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_...evolutions-actually-occur-adam-silverman.html

_______________________________________________
"How revolutions ... actually occur. " Adam Silverman

One of the issues missing from the Iranian election coverage and analysis is the discussion of how revolutions and other forms of political violence actually occur. This is a significant issue that is not concentrated on enough. I have been thinking about the topic for the past five or six weeks as it came up at a workshop I attended back in April when one of the presenters started talking about the root causes of insurgency. The Army, based on doctrine, defines every form of political violence short of interstate war as insurgency.
This includes civil wars, revolutions, insurgencies, guerilla actions, and terrorism. After the speaker laid out all the reasons that people engage in revolutions or insurgencies, I made the point that the root causes he identified exist in most portions of the world at varying levels of strength and severity. As such the much more important question is not why do people engage in revolutions or insurgencies, essentially denying the legitimacy of the state and its governing institutions and seeking to remake them in some other format. Rather the really important question is why don't the majority of people that find themselves living in these conditions revolt or take up arms or even just demonstrate? This is not necessarily an original question - it is the first line of criticism against both Davis' J-Curve and Gurr's Why Men Rebel theories. Moreover, it is the answer to this question of what is preventing action that is likely much more illuminating to our understanding of when these things occur; especially if the root causes are constant and consistent across most states and regions. One possible answer has to do with structural effects on the behavioral process. While behavior is learned and subsequently reinforced through observation of rewards and punishments in a constantly updating feed back loop this social learning is not occurring in a vacuum. Rather there has to be an opportunity to act and in many places there is either no perception or reality of opportunities to make a change.
While many informed observers of Iran would say that to have a revolution there, based on events from the 20th Century, the Religious class, the Merchant/Business Class, and the Students/Intelligentsia have to come together. As the Religious Class is now in charge, with a chunk of what had been the Student Class and Intelligentsia of the 1970s and 1980s, revolution of any sort would appear to be unlikely.
That said it may be that what we're seeing is the result of the populace feeling pushed to make a stand. In reality the lack of opportunity may be curvilinear; preventing revolution or other forms of political violence from occurring, but only up to a point. Once that point is passed, there will be an attempt to force an opening.
If this is the case, then it may not matter who the leadership of the movement is or what societal element it comes from. Once the tipping point has been crossed the attempt to force an opening for change will self reinforce and continue until or unless it is stopped. If this is in fact that case then the focus should really be on what has changed between 2005 and 2009? What is it that made all of the overt and covert manipulation of what is largely a sham democracy by the Religious Authorities who actually run things tolerable then, but intolerable now?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adam L. Silverman, PhD is the Social Science Advisor for Strategic Communications for the US Army's Human Terrain System. The views presented here are his alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the US Army Human Terrain System, the US Army Training and Doctrine Command, or the US Army
 
Re: Are the Iranian People About to Retake their Country?

Another viewpoint (with which I have some differences) which taps on the brakes. . .

It's from the "comments" section of Patrick Lang's website
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_...-are-you-going-to-want-to-do-if.html#comments

___________________________________________

By FLYNT LEVERETT AND HILLARY MANN LEVERETT | 6/15/09 12:01 PM EDT
Without any evidence, many U.S. politicians and ?Iran experts? have dismissed Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad?s reelection Friday, with 62.6 percent of the vote, as fraud.
They ignore the fact that Ahmadinejad?s 62.6 percent of the vote in this year?s election is essentially the same as the 61.69 percent he received in the final count of the 2005 presidential election, when he trounced former President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani. The shock of the ?Iran experts? over Friday?s results is entirely self-generated, based on their preferred assumptions and wishful thinking.
Although Iran?s elections are not free by Western standards, the Islamic Republic has a 30-year history of highly contested and competitive elections at the presidential, parliamentary and local levels. Manipulation has always been there, as it is in many other countries.
But upsets occur ? as, most notably, with Mohammed Khatami?s surprise victory in the 1997 presidential election. Moreover, ?blowouts? also occur ? as in Khatami?s reelection in 2001, Ahmadinejad?s first victory in 2005 and, we would argue, this year.
Like much of the Western media, most American ?Iran experts? overstated Mir Hossein Mousavi?s ?surge? over the campaign?s final weeks. More important, they were oblivious ? as in 2005 ? to Ahmadinejad?s effectiveness as a populist politician and campaigner. American ?Iran experts? missed how Ahmadinejad was perceived by most Iranians as having won the nationally televised debates with his three opponents ? especially his debate with Mousavi.
Before the debates, both Mousavi and Ahmadinejad campaign aides indicated privately that they perceived a surge of support for Mousavi; after the debates, the same aides concluded that Ahmadinejad?s provocatively impressive performance and Mousavi?s desultory one had boosted the incumbent?s standing. Ahmadinejad?s charge that Mousavi was supported by Rafsanjani?s sons ? widely perceived in Iranian society as corrupt figures ? seemed to play well with voters.
Similarly, Ahmadinejad?s criticism that Mousavi?s reformist supporters, including Khatami, had been willing to suspend Iran?s uranium enrichment program and had won nothing from the West for doing so tapped into popular support for the program ? and had the added advantage of being true.
More fundamentally, American ?Iran experts? consistently underestimated Ahmadinejad?s base of support. Polling in Iran is notoriously difficult; most polls there are less than fully professional and, hence, produce results of questionable validity. But the one poll conducted before Friday?s election by a Western organization that was transparent about its methodology ? a telephone poll carried out by the Washington-based Terror-Free Tomorrow from May 11 to 20 ? found Ahmadinejad running 20 points ahead of Mousavi. This poll was conducted before the televised debates in which, as noted above, Ahmadinejad was perceived to have done well while Mousavi did poorly.
American ?Iran experts? assumed that ?disastrous? economic conditions in Iran would undermine Ahmadinejad?s reelection prospects. But the International Monetary Fund projects that Iran?s economy will actually grow modestly this year (when the economies of most Gulf Arab states are in recession). A significant number of Iranians ? including the religiously pious, lower-income groups, civil servants and pensioners ? appear to believe that Ahmadinejad?s policies have benefited them.
And, while many Iranians complain about inflation, the TFT poll found that most Iranian voters do not hold Ahmadinejad responsible. The ?Iran experts? further argue that the high turnout on June 12 ? 82 percent of the electorate ? had to favor Mousavi. But this line of analysis reflects nothing more than assumptions.
Some ?Iran experts? argue that Mousavi?s Azeri background and ?Azeri accent? mean that he was guaranteed to win Iran?s Azeri-majority provinces; since Ahmadinejad did better than Mousavi in these areas, fraud is the only possible explanation.
But Ahmadinejad himself speaks Azeri quite fluently as a consequence of his eight years serving as a popular and successful official in two Azeri-majority provinces; during the campaign, he artfully quoted Azeri and Turkish poetry ? in the original ? in messages designed to appeal to Iran?s Azeri community. (And we should not forget that the supreme leader is Azeri.) The notion that Mousavi was somehow assured of victory in Azeri-majority provinces is simply not grounded in reality.
With regard to electoral irregularities, the specific criticisms made by Mousavi ? such as running out of ballot paper in some precincts and not keeping polls open long enough (even though polls stayed open for at least three hours after the announced closing time) ? could not, in themselves, have tipped the outcome so clearly in Ahmadinejad?s favor.
Moreover, these irregularities do not, in themselves, amount to electoral fraud even by American legal standards. And, compared with the U.S. presidential election in Florida in 2000, the flaws in Iran?s electoral process seem less significant.
In the wake of Friday?s election, some ?Iran experts? ? perhaps feeling burned by their misreading of contemporary political dynamics in the Islamic Republic ? argue that we are witnessing a ?conservative coup d??tat,? aimed at a complete takeover of the Iranian state.
But one could more plausibly suggest that if a ?coup? is being attempted, it has been mounted by the losers in Friday?s election. It was Mousavi, after all, who declared victory on Friday even before Iran?s polls closed. And three days before the election, Mousavi supporter Rafsanjani published a letter criticizing the leader?s failure to rein in Ahmadinejad?s resort to ?such ugly and sin-infected phenomena as insults, lies and false allegations.? Many Iranians took this letter as an indication that the Mousavi camp was concerned their candidate had fallen behind in the campaign?s closing days.
In light of these developments, many politicians and ?Iran experts? argue that the Obama administration cannot now engage the ?illegitimate? Ahmadinejad regime. Certainly, the administration should not appear to be trying to ?play? in the current controversy in Iran about the election. In this regard, President Barack Obama?s comments on Friday, a few hours before the polls closed in Iran, that ?just as has been true in Lebanon, what can be true in Iran as well is that you?re seeing people looking at new possibilities? was extremely maladroit.
From Tehran?s perspective, this observation undercut the credibility of Obama?s acknowledgement, in his Cairo speech earlier this month, of U.S. complicity in overthrowing a democratically elected Iranian government and restoring the shah in 1953.
The Obama administration should vigorously rebut any argument against engaging Tehran following Friday?s vote. More broadly, Ahmadinejad?s victory may force Obama and his senior advisers to come to terms with the deficiencies and internal contradictions in their approach to Iran. Before the Iranian election, the Obama administration had fallen for the same illusion as many of its predecessors ? the illusion that Iranian politics is primarily about personalities and finding the right personality to deal with. That is not how Iranian politics works.
The Islamic Republic is a system with multiple power centers; within that system, there is a strong and enduring consensus about core issues of national security and foreign policy, including Iran?s nuclear program and relations with the United States. Any of the four candidates in Friday?s election would have continued the nuclear program as Iran?s president; none would agree to its suspension.
Any of the four candidates would be interested in a diplomatic opening with the United States, but that opening would need to be comprehensive, respectful of Iran?s legitimate national security interests and regional importance, accepting of Iran?s right to develop and benefit from the full range of civil nuclear technology ? including pursuit of the nuclear fuel cycle ? and aimed at genuine rapprochement.
Such an approach would also, in our judgment, be manifestly in the interests of the United States and its allies throughout the Middle East. It is time for the Obama administration to get serious about pursuing this approach ? with an Iranian administration headed by the reelected President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
Flynt Leverett directs The New America Foundation?s Iran Project and teaches international affairs at Pennsylvania State university. Hillary Mann Leverett is CEO of STRATEGA, a political risk consultancy. Both worked for many years on Middle East issues for the U.S. government, including as members of the National Security Council staff.
Posted by: J | 16 June 2009 at 07:42 PM
 
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