Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
I certainly never feel like I am stealing from my subscribers. I've surrounded myself with talented people, we work hard every day, and release best possible plays at release time. Has been working for last 5 years, well over 56% on last 2500 plays or so.
I certainly never feel like I am stealing from my subscribers. I've surrounded myself with talented people, we work hard every day, and release best possible plays at release time. Has been working for last 5 years, well over 56% on last 2500 plays or so.
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
Bovi left as the Vice-President of an Investment Firm to gamble. I think he's good at it.
Bovi left as the Vice-President of an Investment Firm to gamble. I think he's good at it.
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
"Village idiot seems more appropriate." from Pancho Sanza
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
Anyone who can hit 55% against major sports, as he claims on Feist's site, can easily make far more money betting than he can touting, which is basically the "tout conundrum." His record is most certainly not transparent, though, as it was compiled against the usual fairy tale lines that Vegas Insider uses, stuff like the Bodog square line that absolutely nobody gets. (There's a recent thread on SBR where a $10 bettor was surprised he got switched to the sharp line feed.)
As an example, Bovi mentioned betting the Chargers -1 -127 which VI graded at -1.5, and he actually thought grading against -1 -127 would be unfair because most posters wouldn't buy the half point. -1 -127 is about the same as -1.5 -120, so on that particular pick, VI is fudging his record by about 2.2% vs the actual line he was able to get in his own betting.
Anyone who can hit 55% against major sports, as he claims on Feist's site, can easily make far more money betting than he can touting, which is basically the "tout conundrum." His record is most certainly not transparent, though, as it was compiled against the usual fairy tale lines that Vegas Insider uses, stuff like the Bodog square line that absolutely nobody gets. (There's a recent thread on SBR where a $10 bettor was surprised he got switched to the sharp line feed.)
As an example, Bovi mentioned betting the Chargers -1 -127 which VI graded at -1.5, and he actually thought grading against -1 -127 would be unfair because most posters wouldn't buy the half point. -1 -127 is about the same as -1.5 -120, so on that particular pick, VI is fudging his record by about 2.2% vs the actual line he was able to get in his own betting.
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
Bullshit. VI consistently inflates the record of their touts, and he repeatedly tried to defend their record keeping. A lot of his comments were completely false, like his claims that small bettors can fly under the radar and get the Bodog square line.
Bullshit. VI consistently inflates the record of their touts, and he repeatedly tried to defend their record keeping. A lot of his comments were completely false, like his claims that small bettors can fly under the radar and get the Bodog square line.
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
I can't speak for the other guys, but for me, it's pretty irrelevant that a guy is a tout or not. I criticize those who are dishonest, and there's a huge overlap between touts and dishonesty for the simple reason that the tout's market are the people who want to "break the bank in one day," as Vegas Insider advertises, and most of those people would laugh at a tout who advertised a 53.5% record vs WA lines, whereas I would gladly subscribe to a service if I really believed the tout could win at 53.5% vs WA lines.
I've criticized dishonest posters with nothing to sell, as have PC and ComptrBob. For example, that jackass Ned who kept posting some martingale-type system and lying about the results was called out by ComptrBob and possibly PC as well. PC and I have both criticized BillTheCop for posting misleading and misinterpreted teaser advise on a zillion different forums over the years and ignoring the corrections made by numerous posters (he gets chased off one forum and shows up spewing his same ignorant nonsense on another forum, mocking the "so-called sharps" who criticize his advice.)
I can't speak for the other guys, but for me, it's pretty irrelevant that a guy is a tout or not. I criticize those who are dishonest, and there's a huge overlap between touts and dishonesty for the simple reason that the tout's market are the people who want to "break the bank in one day," as Vegas Insider advertises, and most of those people would laugh at a tout who advertised a 53.5% record vs WA lines, whereas I would gladly subscribe to a service if I really believed the tout could win at 53.5% vs WA lines.
I've criticized dishonest posters with nothing to sell, as have PC and ComptrBob. For example, that jackass Ned who kept posting some martingale-type system and lying about the results was called out by ComptrBob and possibly PC as well. PC and I have both criticized BillTheCop for posting misleading and misinterpreted teaser advise on a zillion different forums over the years and ignoring the corrections made by numerous posters (he gets chased off one forum and shows up spewing his same ignorant nonsense on another forum, mocking the "so-called sharps" who criticize his advice.)
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
The most vocal critics of Bovi in those threads are all professional gamblers.
The most vocal critics of Bovi in those threads are all professional gamblers.
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
Except when you give a shady character early access to your plays for the better part of a CBB season for the purposes of "manipulating lines to get better lines for your subscribers" and it turns out they were using hacked/stiff accounts to manipulate lines. But you had no way of knowing Baker was untrustworthy, as there were only a few hundred posts about him on LVA.
Except when you give a shady character early access to your plays for the better part of a CBB season for the purposes of "manipulating lines to get better lines for your subscribers" and it turns out they were using hacked/stiff accounts to manipulate lines. But you had no way of knowing Baker was untrustworthy, as there were only a few hundred posts about him on LVA.
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
The specific example, the only one he gave in which he quoted the line he got in his personal betting and what VI graded it at, inflated his record by 2.2%. And that's an example Bovi quoted to try to defend the VI system!
I don't know how bad VI is now, but in the past, there were records that could have easily been inflated by 4-5%. They were grading plays at +10 when the real line was +7.5, making mysterious "errors" that literally always benefited the handicapper, etc. Since VI doesn't give a timestamp on the plays, there's no way to tell exactly how much they inflate, but when the example given to try to defend the system is a 2.2% inflation, it doesn't bode well.
The specific example, the only one he gave in which he quoted the line he got in his personal betting and what VI graded it at, inflated his record by 2.2%. And that's an example Bovi quoted to try to defend the VI system!
I don't know how bad VI is now, but in the past, there were records that could have easily been inflated by 4-5%. They were grading plays at +10 when the real line was +7.5, making mysterious "errors" that literally always benefited the handicapper, etc. Since VI doesn't give a timestamp on the plays, there's no way to tell exactly how much they inflate, but when the example given to try to defend the system is a 2.2% inflation, it doesn't bode well.
steak tartar
EOG Dedicated
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
ok thats interesting in itself.....why do they care?......im no tout fan and find it humorous when you guys nail one of them for padding..........but ive also never spoken to billy or MT and have them say " you know what pisses me off?...that fuckin fezzik and his bogus record"............it just seems odd unless they are tracking him for a site or something
ok thats interesting in itself.....why do they care?......im no tout fan and find it humorous when you guys nail one of them for padding..........but ive also never spoken to billy or MT and have them say " you know what pisses me off?...that fuckin fezzik and his bogus record"............it just seems odd unless they are tracking him for a site or something
FISHHEAD
EOG Master
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
Maybe not more appropriate, but definetly want to be portrayed as such.................keeps me under the radar.........................there has always been a method and reasoning behind my insanely intense madness.
Like being successful in this business, and enjoy spreading the rewards to a heavenly feast of people.........those that are posters, as well as those that have never set eyes on a gaming forum.
Gawd I love gambling!!!
:hick:
Maybe not more appropriate, but definetly want to be portrayed as such.................keeps me under the radar.........................there has always been a method and reasoning behind my insanely intense madness.
Like being successful in this business, and enjoy spreading the rewards to a heavenly feast of people.........those that are posters, as well as those that have never set eyes on a gaming forum.
Gawd I love gambling!!!
:hick:
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
I don't think anyone gets "pissed off" at these guys. I personally find it entertaining to watch the various ways they try to justify the bogus grading, the bad betting advice, and all the other tout tricks.
My favorite example was probably when I pointed out that James Manos gave out bad MLB advice--he said if you're betting a heavy favorite, you have to take the -1.5 runline rather than the moneyline, and his Vegas Insider record showed that every time he gave out a heavy favorite it was on the -1.5. Manos said I was wrong, and went back to a 3 year old list of picks and added in a few heavy favorite moneylines which were a net loss of a few units, and then pointed out that altered record to claim I'd lied about the picks he gave out. It was almost genius in its sneakiness, because who would ever believe a tout would make his record slightly WORSE???
Fortunately for me, a poster had recently posted his full record as documented by VegasInsider, so it was obvious something underhanded had gone on when his record from 3 seasons ago had gotten a few units worse. I find it highly entertaining that one of these jokers would go that far to try to discredit me, rather than simply say "Gee, you're right, that betting advice is bad, I will try to improve my handicapping." And like all of these other touts, Manos basically got a pass for that and is has been a guest on the "EOG radio show" several times since.
It strikes me as odd when a bunch of people with 30-100k forum posts complain that the guys with 2k posts have "too much time on their hands" by posting about the touts.
I don't think anyone gets "pissed off" at these guys. I personally find it entertaining to watch the various ways they try to justify the bogus grading, the bad betting advice, and all the other tout tricks.
My favorite example was probably when I pointed out that James Manos gave out bad MLB advice--he said if you're betting a heavy favorite, you have to take the -1.5 runline rather than the moneyline, and his Vegas Insider record showed that every time he gave out a heavy favorite it was on the -1.5. Manos said I was wrong, and went back to a 3 year old list of picks and added in a few heavy favorite moneylines which were a net loss of a few units, and then pointed out that altered record to claim I'd lied about the picks he gave out. It was almost genius in its sneakiness, because who would ever believe a tout would make his record slightly WORSE???
Fortunately for me, a poster had recently posted his full record as documented by VegasInsider, so it was obvious something underhanded had gone on when his record from 3 seasons ago had gotten a few units worse. I find it highly entertaining that one of these jokers would go that far to try to discredit me, rather than simply say "Gee, you're right, that betting advice is bad, I will try to improve my handicapping." And like all of these other touts, Manos basically got a pass for that and is has been a guest on the "EOG radio show" several times since.
It strikes me as odd when a bunch of people with 30-100k forum posts complain that the guys with 2k posts have "too much time on their hands" by posting about the touts.
steak tartar
EOG Dedicated
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
thanks for the reply GM
thanks for the reply GM
KingRevolver
Born Rambler
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
Classic thread already.
Classic thread already.
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
There is zero evidence that he used hacked accounts to manipulate lines on RAS plays. Six weeks isn't quite "the better part" of a 20 week CBB season. You think it was obvious that he shouldn't have been trusted, but the sheer number of large and reputable gamblers who worked with him in some capacity before and after us suggests otherwise. Hindsight is always 20/20.
There is zero evidence that he used hacked accounts to manipulate lines on RAS plays. Six weeks isn't quite "the better part" of a 20 week CBB season. You think it was obvious that he shouldn't have been trusted, but the sheer number of large and reputable gamblers who worked with him in some capacity before and after us suggests otherwise. Hindsight is always 20/20.
Mammon
EOG Master
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
I accused Bovi of being a tout scum a long time ago and had JK ask him about it on the first radio show.
He came back pretty legit. He charges like 30 bucks a week for gravy and for those that are interested that don't know him enough to call him.
BUT, most importantly he bets his games fairly large and that is what really matters to him. If he is losing currently that sucks for him but he has survived and won so far on his own.
His tout biz is more likely his tax shelter...
I accused Bovi of being a tout scum a long time ago and had JK ask him about it on the first radio show.
He came back pretty legit. He charges like 30 bucks a week for gravy and for those that are interested that don't know him enough to call him.
BUT, most importantly he bets his games fairly large and that is what really matters to him. If he is losing currently that sucks for him but he has survived and won so far on his own.
His tout biz is more likely his tax shelter...
DJDalamar
EOG Dedicated
FISHHEAD
EOG Master
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
To many wannabe serious business people in this thread........................told many of these people AND 2+2er's to by Iowa farmland and they ridiculed me...........................meanwhile, just in the LAST YEAR it is up 30%+
If you want to gamble for a living, GAMBLE......................don't sell your services.
ENJOY LIFE FOR GAWDSAKES.
To many wannabe serious business people in this thread........................told many of these people AND 2+2er's to by Iowa farmland and they ridiculed me...........................meanwhile, just in the LAST YEAR it is up 30%+
If you want to gamble for a living, GAMBLE......................don't sell your services.
ENJOY LIFE FOR GAWDSAKES.
Flamingo kid
Everybody's hands go UP!
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
So you bought a farm in Iowa?
So you bought a farm in Iowa?
FISHHEAD
EOG Master
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
HUH?
Yes, 13 years ago.....................plus inherited a SMALL chunk in 1997.
The parcel purchased in 1999 with SLOT WINNINGS for 232,000 is now worth over a million bucks.
Are you new to the forums???
HUH?
Yes, 13 years ago.....................plus inherited a SMALL chunk in 1997.
The parcel purchased in 1999 with SLOT WINNINGS for 232,000 is now worth over a million bucks.
Are you new to the forums???
Flamingo kid
Everybody's hands go UP!
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
What does your farm have to do me being new to the forums? I don't get the connection.
What does your farm have to do me being new to the forums? I don't get the connection.
FISHHEAD
EOG Master
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
Been TOUTing this investment for 7-9 years on various gaming forums.
Good day,
FH
Been TOUTing this investment for 7-9 years on various gaming forums.
Good day,
FH
Flamingo kid
Everybody's hands go UP!
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
I just dont remember reading about farms in Iowa. I don't click or read every thread in cyberspace, i must have just missed it.
I just dont remember reading about farms in Iowa. I don't click or read every thread in cyberspace, i must have just missed it.
FISHHEAD
EOG Master
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/3...t-set-my-neighbor-iowa-farmland-owner-145176/
Feel free to bump this thread over there.............
Thank you
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/3...t-set-my-neighbor-iowa-farmland-owner-145176/
Feel free to bump this thread over there.............
Thank you
Flamingo kid
Everybody's hands go UP!
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
I only post at EOG, (and sometimes at capwins) so, me bumping it is gonna be difficult!
I only post at EOG, (and sometimes at capwins) so, me bumping it is gonna be difficult!
FISHHEAD
EOG Master
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
Well, read the thread........I have a clue.
Register and bump the sonofabitch......................you or somebody else.
Well, read the thread........I have a clue.
Register and bump the sonofabitch......................you or somebody else.
Flamingo kid
Everybody's hands go UP!
FISHHEAD
EOG Master
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
this land was attainable for around 5,200/A 6-7 years ago.
Champaign & Piatt Counties, IL
May 26, 2011
Parcel 1 - 77.5 acres sold for $999,750 ($12,900/A)
Parcel 2 - 80 acres sold for $936,000 ($11,700/A)
Parcel 3 - 100 acres sold for $1,130,000 ($11,300/A) <!-- / message -->
this land was attainable for around 5,200/A 6-7 years ago.
Champaign & Piatt Counties, IL
May 26, 2011
Parcel 1 - 77.5 acres sold for $999,750 ($12,900/A)
Parcel 2 - 80 acres sold for $936,000 ($11,700/A)
Parcel 3 - 100 acres sold for $1,130,000 ($11,300/A) <!-- / message -->
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
Not all.
You know how many sites were offering me job to be exclusive to their sites back when I was posting on a 'serious' basis? Just about all of them, and that was when guys could make some good money doing it. You know how many I entertained or thought about for more than a second? Zero.
Some of the better pitches were to get me to post and blog and write stories or articles then within a season or so let me start selling plays in a 'subscription' type forum or on a link directly on the sites page. Of which I would get a cut. I think the best offer was 40% on top of the regular 'paycheck'. I would get the same treatment as every tout or book got. The usual site seal of approval. So it was a built in advertising campaign on a site I was supposedly going to have a lot of followers. Good or bad.
So no not everyone sells out. Desperate, lazy, uninspired guys with little to no character sell out as fast as they can. Guys that dont need it or want it wont. Not everyone has a price either.
The backlash with this guy in particular was he was a total outsider no one had ever heard of and he took a spot in a 10K free invite tourney from a 'regular' poster. Then when the heat got turned up and he tried to justify what he and other touts did he didnt fair too well. So he left. cant blame him there i guess you cant argue with fools who dont know enough to look at both sides of an argument. Even if their side is 'right'.
Either way I doubt his stint here helped him and I am damn sure it didnt hurt him any. Maybe his feelings a little bit. Bu for the biggest sycophants on here that should be some solace, to find out the guy actully has some sort of feelings, even if they are only for himself.
Not all.
You know how many sites were offering me job to be exclusive to their sites back when I was posting on a 'serious' basis? Just about all of them, and that was when guys could make some good money doing it. You know how many I entertained or thought about for more than a second? Zero.
Some of the better pitches were to get me to post and blog and write stories or articles then within a season or so let me start selling plays in a 'subscription' type forum or on a link directly on the sites page. Of which I would get a cut. I think the best offer was 40% on top of the regular 'paycheck'. I would get the same treatment as every tout or book got. The usual site seal of approval. So it was a built in advertising campaign on a site I was supposedly going to have a lot of followers. Good or bad.
So no not everyone sells out. Desperate, lazy, uninspired guys with little to no character sell out as fast as they can. Guys that dont need it or want it wont. Not everyone has a price either.
The backlash with this guy in particular was he was a total outsider no one had ever heard of and he took a spot in a 10K free invite tourney from a 'regular' poster. Then when the heat got turned up and he tried to justify what he and other touts did he didnt fair too well. So he left. cant blame him there i guess you cant argue with fools who dont know enough to look at both sides of an argument. Even if their side is 'right'.
Either way I doubt his stint here helped him and I am damn sure it didnt hurt him any. Maybe his feelings a little bit. Bu for the biggest sycophants on here that should be some solace, to find out the guy actully has some sort of feelings, even if they are only for himself.
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
a guy goofing around can double his money gambling in 4 years, so doubling your money in 6 or 7 (with a 500K upfront pay out/responsibility) isnt all that impressive.
Even if a guy started with a 500K bankroll in 2005 and picked and chose his spots, even in this horrible age of gambling he should have and more than likely would have almost tripled his bankroll by now. That is with bad limits, limited outs, no bonuses, it would also assumes him not dipping into the BR at all for living expenses of any kind. i.e second mortgage.
It all sounds impressive I guess to 'legit' investors since the economic positives have been few and far between for the 'common' man. These things are the things salesmen, conmen, and charlatans like to highlight as 'proof' that regular people can make money with little to no risk on whatever scam theyre trying to sell.
Which sort of fits into this whole thread as most touts, if they actually bet or have a betting IQ and had the ability to get people to move a line for them would be putting out opposite sides and betting the move, thus giving themselves a larger edge. If their 'wrong' their clients win and keep paying them, if theyre right they chalk it up to just another game but pocket some nice cash. Trick is to balance the books and only bet here or there on games you know will see a lot of movement, maybe even enough to get both sides home. Obviously not fool proof but in some 'markets' it is possible.
Either way betting on sports is still the most +ev opportunity for making money there is, assuming you know what youre doing and how to approach it, and if you have a 100% guaranteed 'out'.
a guy goofing around can double his money gambling in 4 years, so doubling your money in 6 or 7 (with a 500K upfront pay out/responsibility) isnt all that impressive.
Even if a guy started with a 500K bankroll in 2005 and picked and chose his spots, even in this horrible age of gambling he should have and more than likely would have almost tripled his bankroll by now. That is with bad limits, limited outs, no bonuses, it would also assumes him not dipping into the BR at all for living expenses of any kind. i.e second mortgage.
It all sounds impressive I guess to 'legit' investors since the economic positives have been few and far between for the 'common' man. These things are the things salesmen, conmen, and charlatans like to highlight as 'proof' that regular people can make money with little to no risk on whatever scam theyre trying to sell.
Which sort of fits into this whole thread as most touts, if they actually bet or have a betting IQ and had the ability to get people to move a line for them would be putting out opposite sides and betting the move, thus giving themselves a larger edge. If their 'wrong' their clients win and keep paying them, if theyre right they chalk it up to just another game but pocket some nice cash. Trick is to balance the books and only bet here or there on games you know will see a lot of movement, maybe even enough to get both sides home. Obviously not fool proof but in some 'markets' it is possible.
Either way betting on sports is still the most +ev opportunity for making money there is, assuming you know what youre doing and how to approach it, and if you have a 100% guaranteed 'out'.
WVU
EOG Master
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
When was this and which sites?
When was this and which sites?
Re: John Kelly, care to educate all of us on Paul Bovi?
We made a mistake marketing the $10,000 EOG Invitational.
At some point, it was misunderstood to be a "contributors only" contest and that was never the intention.
It worked out well in the end as the 16 hand-picked contestants currently are a combined 114-77-5 after 196 plays.
Most of the credit goes to our contest coordinator Tuckman.
I love the checks and balances of the sports advisory business.
Guys like ComptrBob, PerpetualCzech, groovinmahoovin, wantitall4moi, 2W2P2S, Heim, etc. have proven in the past to dominate the sleaze and the slugs of the tout business.
We made a mistake marketing the $10,000 EOG Invitational.
At some point, it was misunderstood to be a "contributors only" contest and that was never the intention.
It worked out well in the end as the 16 hand-picked contestants currently are a combined 114-77-5 after 196 plays.
Most of the credit goes to our contest coordinator Tuckman.
I love the checks and balances of the sports advisory business.
Guys like ComptrBob, PerpetualCzech, groovinmahoovin, wantitall4moi, 2W2P2S, Heim, etc. have proven in the past to dominate the sleaze and the slugs of the tout business.