Answers to JK's questions on baseball handicapping

ejd_5277

EOG Dedicated
I initially posted this in my picks thread but I'm moving it to its own thread so as not to clutter a picks thread with other discussion.

Three questions for EJD:

1) Best sources of information for your baseball handicapping?

2) What are the three or four major handicapping principles for you?

3) Do you watch the games?

1.) weather.gov

2.) In preseason, it's dogs, dogs, and more dogs. The only losing year I had more or less blindly betting every +150 or higher dog was 2020, and that was obviously COVID-shortened. I'm hesitant to use that strategy this year though because so far so many games are not going 9 innings yet, and that means fewer AB's for the scrubs who are the great equalizers in preseason ball.

Once the regular season starts it's overall totals trends on the macro level, and weather-specific plays on the micro level. I'll give an example of both.

I think I was fortunate to realize early on in 2017 that the ball was very obviously juiced. People say it happened after the all star break but I think it was earlier. I had great success betting overs, but once the books caught up I hung on for too long and 2017 wound up being pretty bad. I know some primarily UNDER bettors on here (Valuisr comes to mind) mentioned getting killed pretty bad early on in that season.

MLB claims a deadened baseball this year. Not sure I believe them yet but I will probably be a little more cautious early on.

Wind and humidity are everything to totals bettors, but it goes WAY beyond "the wind is blowing out at Wrigley today" or "the marine layer is in place at Petco."

I've been to every outdoor ballpark in MLB, and when I go I get there right as the gates open (usually 90 min or so before first pitch) and I circumnavigate the ballpark at least twice on foot, once on the lowest level possible and once on the highest level possible. I'm looking for potential wind tunnels while I do this.

Here's an example:

https://earth.google.com/web/@39.05160678,-94.48023728,258.08514229a,344.0754954d,35y,0h,0t,0r

This is the "K" in Kansas City. Look at the right field corner and you'll notice a gap between where the upper deck grandstand ends and a building to the right of it (which is the restaurant and bar down the right field line if you've ever been there.) That gap is one of the park entrances.

The 'K" is known for generally being a pitcher's park with a cavernous left field, which shows up quite well in that same shot. Every once in awhile though when there's a just east of due south wind (170-180 degrees on the compass) it will get funneled through that gap and will howl out to left. I'm 14-4 lifetime betting OVERS into that angle, considering no other factors.

Marine layers on the other hand are known to depress scoring, particularly in night west coast games. Not all marine layers are created equal though... The truth is a marine layer that moves in during the game will have a much larger effect than a marine layer already in place when the game begins. I'll explain why briefly:

We know that hot air rises and cold air sinks, but the only relevant factor is the temperature of a certain parcel of air relative to the surrounding parcels of air or the parcels of air that it's replacing. A parcel of air at -20 degrees will still rise if the surrounding parcels are at -30.

Marine layers are generally ocean-cooled parcels of air that move inland to replace rising warmer air that has been heated by the sun over land. The actual "sinking" motion of the air takes place while that air is in the act of replacing the warmer air, i.e. when the marine layer first moves in. It just so happens that this often coincides with the evening start times of these west coast games, as they start right around the same time that the heating of the day from the sun is lost. If the marine layer is already in place at first pitch though, it will have very little effect on the baseball, as it has already stabilized the atmosphere at that point.

The notion that the air in the marine layer is "heavy" is false. Yes, cooler air is denser than warm air is, but the higher moisture content largely offsets that. The more moisture in the air, the more buoyant it is as water vapor is actually lighter than air. It all has to do with that sinking motion as that air replaces the warmer sun-heated air.

3.) Yes, and the more games I can watch, the better. Few get more value out of their MLB Extra Innings subscription than I do. I'm kinda surprised they don't have a "special rate" just for me. LOL

Hope all this is helpful. Good luck to all in 2021.
 

Valuist

EOG Master
EJD,

You are 100% correct regarding the 2017 season. I had a horrific run in May and June of 2017, and was down about 25 units on the season at that point. Likewise, I share your skepticism of MLB's claims the ball will be dead, I do think we can see pitching very strong this year, as nobody pitched a lot of innings last year. I'm a weather geek myself and I can remember when I lived in the Bay area, many times seeing the clouds come inland from the Pacific around 6 pm. And I've seen thousands of games at Wrigley, which is still misunderstood by many. The signage that was added in the last 5 years has lessened the effect of the wind blowing out. For many years, you'd see a total of 12 at Wrigley and it still wasn't high enough. No longer the case at all.

Excellent post.
 
This is great stuff, that KC angle is great. Anyone who has lived in coastal California knows that relative feeling when the fog is blowing in, feels much colder than the air temp suggests and the air is definitely unsettled. Once its in place, there really isn't a "feel" to the temperature and the air feels very calm. When its burning off, you don't really notice it either until the sun is fully out, but there is no sense of wind or temperature warming up until its fully sunny.
 
Just curious what do you watch for in the games? I know a lot of people watch a bunch of games in other sports for momentum or key factors like foul trouble, but not sure what one would be watching for in MLB. Personally I'm bored to tears by baseball on TV so I couldn't watch it unless it was very lucrative to do so, but like hearing what others are watching for.
 

Valuist

EOG Master
Just curious what do you watch for in the games? I know a lot of people watch a bunch of games in other sports for momentum or key factors like foul trouble, but not sure what one would be watching for in MLB. Personally I'm bored to tears by baseball on TV so I couldn't watch it unless it was very lucrative to do so, but like hearing what others are watching for.

I will watch the pitchers. Are guys struggling to find the plate? Are they nibbling? Every now and then you find an instance where a pitcher is giving up crazy hard contact but getting really lucky. Maybe a ball is hit 430 feet but was foul by a couple feet. Screaming line drives caught. Is the ump squeezing them? This isn't an every day occurrence but anytime form is dressed up, it sets up a future opportunity.
 
I will watch the pitchers. Are guys struggling to find the plate? Are they nibbling? Every now and then you find an instance where a pitcher is giving up crazy hard contact but getting really lucky. Maybe a ball is hit 430 feet but was foul by a couple feet. Screaming line drives caught. Is the ump squeezing them? This isn't an every day occurrence but anytime form is dressed up, it sets up a future opportunity.

Do you find the live lines get adjusted for this or are there good spots to bet in-game? Or is more value found in these pitchers next starts?
 

ejd_5277

EOG Dedicated
EJD,

You are 100% correct regarding the 2017 season. I had a horrific run in May and June of 2017, and was down about 25 units on the season at that point. Likewise, I share your skepticism of MLB's claims the ball will be dead, I do think we can see pitching very strong this year, as nobody pitched a lot of innings last year. I'm a weather geek myself and I can remember when I lived in the Bay area, many times seeing the clouds come inland from the Pacific around 6 pm. And I've seen thousands of games at Wrigley, which is still misunderstood by many. The signage that was added in the last 5 years has lessened the effect of the wind blowing out. For many years, you'd see a total of 12 at Wrigley and it still wasn't high enough. No longer the case at all.

Excellent post.

Thanks Valuist. I had to bust your balls a bit because early on that year you posted in my picks thread and told me I was betting too many overs. :)

Turns out once the 2nd half rolled around that's exactly what I did.

And you're dead on about Wrigley. The prevailing wind direction during summer heat waves is SSW, (about 190-200 degrees on the compass) which means it blows straight at the new huge Wintrust sign. While some of the air will get funneled around the sign, (which actually helps balls hit right down the left field line or to dead center) some of that air will "pile up" (for lack of a better term) in front of the sign, creating a small area of greater atmospheric pressure, and thus resistance to flight. Unfortunately, that sign is smack dab in the middle of the power alley.

The Budweiser sign down the right field line would have the same effect, but would require a west-northwest wind which is not nearly as common.

Just curious what do you watch for in the games? I know a lot of people watch a bunch of games in other sports for momentum or key factors like foul trouble, but not sure what one would be watching for in MLB. Personally I'm bored to tears by baseball on TV so I couldn't watch it unless it was very lucrative to do so, but like hearing what others are watching for.

Well, mostly I just love watching baseball.

I pay very little attention to pitchers or matchups. All i'm interested in is the behavior of the batted ball in flight. We've all heard the play by play guy say "wow, the ball is really carrying tonight!" or vice-versa. My job then is to figure out why or why not, and fire on a wager when those conditions are replicated in the future if I don't feel it's already priced in. (and it usually isn't.)
 

John Kelly

Born Gambler
Staff member
Thanks for sharing, EJD.

I'll read your post several more times before making a comment.

I spoke with ComptrBob last night.

I have a scheduled one-hour conversation with Bob this Saturday morning.

He's kind enough to answer all my questions regarding the math of sports betting.

When I have a question about baseball, EJD will now be my go-to guy.

I love that he watches a lot of MLB games.

Great way to learn, if you know what you're watching and he clearly knows what he's watching.

I've leaned on several EOG contributors through the years.

For bowling tips, I go to MRBOWLING300, author of more than 10 perfect games.

For table tennis advice, BOMZEE is well-known in Las Vegas circles as a champion player.

For hoop talk, SKINNY and DAVID DINEEN are my favorite advisors, one has been betting the games professionally since the early 1980's and the other played D-1 basketball in the mid-1990s.

And for political banter, I reach out to RAILBIRD and BIGRUNNER for views on the far right and far left.

I'll be here all week.
 

FairWarning

Bells Beer Connoisseur
Thanks Valuist. I had to bust your balls a bit because early on that year you posted in my picks thread and told me I was betting too many overs. :)

Turns out once the 2nd half rolled around that's exactly what I did.

And you're dead on about Wrigley. The prevailing wind direction during summer heat waves is SSW, (about 190-200 degrees on the compass) which means it blows straight at the new huge Wintrust sign. While some of the air will get funneled around the sign, (which actually helps balls hit right down the left field line or to dead center) some of that air will "pile up" (for lack of a better term) in front of the sign, creating a small area of greater atmospheric pressure, and thus resistance to flight. Unfortunately, that sign is smack dab in the middle of the power alley.

The Budweiser sign down the right field line would have the same effect, but would require a west-northwest wind which is not nearly as common.



Well, mostly I just love watching baseball.

I pay very little attention to pitchers or matchups. All i'm interested in is the behavior of the batted ball in flight. We've all heard the play by play guy say "wow, the ball is really carrying tonight!" or vice-versa. My job then is to figure out why or why not, and fire on a wager when those conditions are replicated in the future if I don't feel it's already priced in. (and it usually isn't.)

Those two message boards at Wrigley really affected the totals. It was a sad day when they built them - especially affecting the unders.
 

FairWarning

Bells Beer Connoisseur
Do you find the live lines get adjusted for this or are there good spots to bet in-game? Or is more value found in these pitchers next starts?
I don't think the live lines account for it. The biggest factor though is the bullpen. The SP's have such a quick hook, bullpens are just a big a factor. I have been playing more 5-inning lines to avoid bad bullpens.
 
Walks the stadium looking for wind tunnels? That's hard core. I drink heavily and look for hot moms while waiting for game to start.

That reminds me of a buddy of mine who used to go to Bon Jovi and Aerosmith concerts to watch the guitar and bass guys and how they played. He never got a paying gig in his life but acted like he had to go and watch them play live to learn stuff because he wanted to improve on his jam session skills. He's a very single guy and I told him you'll never find easier MILFs or cougars than at those two shows, they are loose as can be with 3-4 drinks in them and he was like "yeah, I guess you are right there are some hot looking drunk women at those shows."
 

nut6

EOG Master
Zero. Already priced in.



Still plenty of time for that... It worked once. (also in Kansas City oddly enough)

never implied that it wasn’t already factored in.
most everything you mention is factored into the
Line. I doubt individual books have fellas walking the parks looking for wind tunnels so you definitely
Are one up there. I guess I should have phrased question to say do you even look at umpires at all?
 

ejd_5277

EOG Dedicated
sorry for the curt response nutter. Didn't mean to come of as being short with you.

I don't look at umpires, only because there's so much data kept on them these days that I just assume that umpire-related line adjustments are efficient. It's probably a weakness in my capping style for sure.

Hope you're well.
 

railbird

EOG Master
I was using barometric pressure at Jack Murphy stadium as far back as 1988, as a tennis player for Grossmont JC i would go down the 805 south to pueblo amigo and parlay 2 teamers on side total, the chalk was usually 30 to 50 cents higher than market price the last 20 minutes before 1st pitch
 

cheapseats

EOG Master
I've heard time and again that pitchers have trouble at Coors Field resulting from thin air. How do you factor that into your thinking.
 
I've heard time and again that pitchers have trouble at Coors Field resulting from thin air. How do you factor that into your thinking.

Pitchers on both sides have to deal with it. Some research the team supposedly did found that the real problem is the recovery from a start while staying at altitude appears to be detrimental. I don't know if they did it but there was a thought that sending a pitcher to lower altitude, either the site of his next start if on the road or to the team's facility in Arizona post a longer start might yield some better results. That doesn't really do anything for the game at hand, but it might be something to look at for a visiting pitcher who throws a lot of pitches or seems to be exerting himself quite a bit early in a series at Coors Field.

Obviously the air affects and the park dimensions cause some fundamental shifts, with a lot of the focus on breaking ball pitchers having trouble here as pitches don't break as much so fastball pitchers are preferred. These days though a lot more pitchers are not as dependent on movement as opposed to varying their speeds and hiding the ball so its probably not worth what it used to be.
 

Valuist

EOG Master
It `affects breaking ball pitchers more than power pitchers.

Bingo. Pitchers who throw a lot of fastballs and changeups are much better off than those who rely on breaking pitches. The Rockies found out the hard way, with guys like Mike Hampton and the late Darryl Kyle.
 

ejd_5277

EOG Dedicated
Coors (like Wrigley) is also a somewhat misunderstood ballpark.

First, the comments above are all spot on. Breaking balls break by creating drag... a difference in air pressure above and beneath the baseball caused by the spin of the ball. This causes it to sink. (Airplane wings create the opposite effect, called lift.) When the antecedent air pressure is already low, the same spin rate won't create the same difference in pressure, thus the ball doesn't break as much.

Squares think all the offense at Coors comes from all the home runs resulting from the ball flying farther. This is false. The park was built to compensate for that; it's absolutely monstrous to all fields. The next time you watch a Coors game, notice how many pop ups drop in between the infielders and the outfielders. A lot of these balls are routine plays in other parks, but the outfielders have to play so deep at Coors that a lot of these balls find green. Also, more space between the outfielders means a LOT more balls in the gap. The entire park is doubles/triples heaven. In fact, if I were the Rockies GM I would be way more interested in building a team more in the mold of the great Cardinals teams of the 80's than I would the '27 Yankees. Give me Willie McGee and Vince Coleman all day in that park.
 
Coors (like Wrigley) is also a somewhat misunderstood ballpark.

First, the comments above are all spot on. Breaking balls break by creating drag... a difference in air pressure above and beneath the baseball caused by the spin of the ball. This causes it to sink. (Airplane wings create the opposite effect, called lift.) When the antecedent air pressure is already low, the same spin rate won't create the same difference in pressure, thus the ball doesn't break as much.

Squares think all the offense at Coors comes from all the home runs resulting from the ball flying farther. This is false. The park was built to compensate for that; it's absolutely monstrous to all fields. The next time you watch a Coors game, notice how many pop ups drop in between the infielders and the outfielders. A lot of these balls are routine plays in other parks, but the outfielders have to play so deep at Coors that a lot of these balls find green. Also, more space between the outfielders means a LOT more balls in the gap. The entire park is doubles/triples heaven. In fact, if I were the Rockies GM I would be way more interested in building a team more in the mold of the great Cardinals teams of the 80's than I would the '27 Yankees. Give me Willie McGee and Vince Coleman all day in that park.

The management of the Rockies is atrocious from the owner on down. These things you would think are obvious are just ignored because to them it's just a business that is to be managed to a profit. Wins and losses just happen, but staying on budget is planned for in great detail. So they have the same old school scouts drafting players who fit normal profiles and then act shocked when they don't work out in the unique environment that is high altitude baseball. They never have respected how valuable not getting outs are, signing one guy after another in the hopes he will be a basher who goes deep often. When they get a guy with a nice repertoire of skills and real professional hitting approach like DJ they just let him walk and go show out for another team. And even worse, they spend all this money on relievers who show up scared shitless about the park who proceed to walk one hitter after another and end up with a big inning when someone does finally get something to swing at.

All this being said it's not terribly predictable as a stadium. Yeah more runs are going to be scored and big innings will happen, but that's all priced in. Even with the most unique home field advantage in the league the team rarely does that great at home record wise.
 

cheapseats

EOG Master
"PRICED IN".....I don't have numbers, but I'd think foul territory has some validity in totals. Oakland Alameda has a huge foul ground area, plays more often than not to cool, damp conditions and is essentially at sea level. So, foul outs increase, cool temp keeps ball in play and sea level benefits the curveball ( if Coors does not). Oakland does have a short porch to left and left center. Now, left v right pitch-hit is subject to conversation.
 

FairWarning

Bells Beer Connoisseur
"PRICED IN".....I don't have numbers, but I'd think foul territory has some validity in totals. Oakland Alameda has a huge foul ground area, plays more often than not to cool, damp conditions and is essentially at sea level. So, foul outs increase, cool temp keeps ball in play and sea level benefits the curveball ( if Coors does not). Oakland does have a short porch to left and left center. Now, left v right pitch-hit is subject to conversation.
The day games at Oakland has the opposite effect, the ball really carries.
 
The day games at Oakland has the opposite effect, the ball really carries.

Fairly rare to get a good warm day in Oakland until September though. Before then its still around 70 degrees and the winds are light until very late in the afternoon when the fog starts making its push in.
 

FairWarning

Bells Beer Connoisseur
Fairly rare to get a good warm day in Oakland until September though. Before then its still around 70 degrees and the winds are light until very late in the afternoon when the fog starts making its push in.
You brought up a good point about Oakland, it applies to SF also. The summers are later there, usually august-October. I look for overs in those day games.
 
You brought up a good point about Oakland, it applies to SF also. The summers are later there, usually august-October. I look for overs in those day games.

Yep the eight week Bay Area summer usually kicks in just before Labor Day and dies off just before Halloween. Its about a month later and shorter than the So Cal summer which usually hits right about the end of July and can get really fierce in August and September. There's been a number of times where I went to LA and the weather was hotter than it was in Las Vegas that day. Dodger Stadium plays a little different than the other 4 California parks, it gets cooled a little from the marine layer but its rarely foggy or dense air that far inland. People that aren't from California are in for a real shock about how much the weather differs in summer from the coast to just an hour's drive east, you can easily see a 25-30 degree warm up.
 

John Kelly

Born Gambler
Staff member
"PRICED IN".....I don't have numbers, but I'd think foul territory has some validity in totals. Oakland Alameda has a huge foul ground area, plays more often than not to cool, damp conditions and is essentially at sea level. So, foul outs increase, cool temp keeps ball in play and sea level benefits the curveball ( if Coors does not). Oakland does have a short porch to left and left center. Now, left v right pitch-hit is subject to conversation.


Very little foul ground at Coors Field.

If memory serves, we all know the distance between the pitching rubber and home plate is 60 feet, six inches while at Coors Field the distance between home plate and the backstop is less than 60 feet.
 
Very little foul ground at Coors Field.

If memory serves, we all know the distance between the pitching rubber and home plate is 60 feet, six inches while at Coors Field the distance between home plate and the backstop is less than 60 feet.

Coors has pretty normal dimensions in foul ground for a modern stadium. Pretty much fan desires to be close to the action drives that, why it made no sense to have bullpens down the line like they used to.
 
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