Poker etiquette question

#1
Interesting hand on Poker After Dark. Hellmuth bluffs on the river, and Bellande reluctantly calls. Hellmuth says, "You got it. Good call." They all wait for Bellande to flip his hand over, but he refuses. He wants Phil to muck his cards, so he can then muck his own cards, and take down the pot. He doesn't want the table to see what he called Phil with... but Hellmuth is saying he needs to flip his hand over in order to win the pot.

I think by most casino rules... Bellande isn't required to flip it over in order to take down the pot... Hellmuth (or your opponent) mucking their cards first is sufficient.

But, among players, I think it's expected that you flip your cards over... so the question is more about poker etiquette.



Who's right?
 
#2
Re: Poker etiquette question

"You got it. Good call."

That line means he doesn't have to flip shit, IMO. If I was playing live, and someone said it's yours or you got it I muck my hand and take the pot. Can't watch the video, but did Helmuth show is hand? If Helmuth showed his hand, it's a different story - he's gotta show if Helmuth shows his hand.
 
#3
Re: Poker etiquette question

Disagree with you Timely, most places (if not all of them) you have to show your hand to take down the pot. Doesn't matter what is said, last "live" hand wins.
 
#4
Re: Poker etiquette question

If Helmuth mucks his hand, I am not sure how you can say that Patty. Helmuth can't refuse to show his hand by mucking, and saying you won, and then make you show your hand.
 
#5
Re: Poker etiquette question

Yep, I think he can do exactly that TH. Didn't watch the clip but it's not unusual for someone to ask the other guy to muck his hand. Someone says "you win" to me, I do the same thing, ask him to muck his hand (just in case) but I know I still have to show a hand in order to be awarded the pot. I just want to make sure his hand is legally dead before I show mine. Others can chime in but you just can't go and award pots without anyone showing cards, pretty sure it's not even legal to do that where they have laws that govern card rooms. If there's 4 guys and they all say you win Phil, can they give the pot to Phil and no one show their hand in that situation as well? Of course I could be wrong, maybe it's changed but in the past you have to show your hand in order to take down a pot unless of course there's an uncalled bet at the end of the hand. You can't all just check at the end and decide amongst yourselves who gets the pot without anyone showing a hand.
 

PO69

EOG Master
#6
Re: Poker etiquette question

You never have to show your hand to win the pot unless there is an all in.

As long as the other player mucked his cards, then you are free to muck yours as well. The pot will be dragged to you since you were the only one with live cards.


Kinger, it is NOT bad etiquette at all. HELMUTH has to show his cards first since the other guy called his bet. Same goes for tournament play as well, even in the WSOP. I saw it happen on numerous occassions this year where no one showed on the river when the other guy mucked
 
#7
Re: Poker etiquette question

"You got it. Good call."

That line means he doesn't have to flip shit, IMO. If I was playing live, and someone said it's yours or you got it I muck my hand and take the pot. Can't watch the video, but did Helmuth show is hand? If Helmuth showed his hand, it's a different story - he's gotta show if Helmuth shows his hand.
Yes, after they argued, Hellmuth flipped over his bluff, which forced Bellande to show his winning hand.
 
#8
Re: Poker etiquette question

I think by most casino rules... Bellande isn't required to flip it over in order to take down the pot... Hellmuth (or your opponent) mucking their cards first is sufficient.

This has been the case wherever I've played cards - it's in no way "illegal" Pat. Happens when the 1st person to act is bluffing - usually after missing a low draw.

Yes, after they argued, Hellmuth flipped over his bluff, which forced Bellande to show his winning hand.
That would mean that Bellande has to show his hand then. If Hellmuth just mucked his hand and said you got it, I see no reason for Bellande having to show his hand. If that was the case, Hellmuth wouldn't have been forced to show his hand.
 
#9
Re: Poker etiquette question

Fair enough, sounds like I'm wrong. I've never seen it though. Saw many times where a guy admits he's beat and will muck his hand but had no idea the other guy could muck right behind him and didn't need to how his cards either. As a player at the table I can tell you now I would ask to see it (and be well within my rights). This is a new rule, in the past players didn't decide who to give a pot to. Of course they could muck their own hand but someone had to show a hand before winning. Anyway live and learn, out now to play some cards matter of fact. :)
 
#12
Re: Poker etiquette question

On a call, the dealer needs to see the hands in order to declare the winner, regardless of what the players say. It's not like a no call on the river where you are the last player standing and nobody calls your bet.
 
#13
Re: Poker etiquette question

"what if you're a goofball that just catches cards"

:+textinb3

that was classic


thanks for posting kinger

on episode 4 of 6
 
#14
Re: Poker etiquette question

different places have different rules. With the verbal "you got it" a majority would give the pot to the guy even if both hands were flipped and Phil ones. A verbal before a 'cards speak' is binding in most places.

If phil mucked then the guy doesnt have to show for sure. But if Phil gave a verbal 'you win' and showed his then the room rules go. But I would think most people at the table would know the guy won from the verbal. only guy who has to show is the guy called. Since Phil conceded he then doesnt have to show either, but neither does the other guy. So phil showed, or didnt show, didnt watch the video, but he conceded so no need for the other guy to show even if phil decided to.

Either way its a phil hlemuth thing and he does this stuff more for attention and adding to his infamous reputation than anything else.


No one knows more about poker etiquette than Phil helmuth. despite how he acts, and 99% of it is an act, he understands the game and respects it. Phil Helmuth was a lot different type of player before the cameras showed every hand ever played. Now he is basically a wrestler who has to live the gimmick.
 
#15
Re: Poker etiquette question

Grizzle is funny, Phil is a tool


‪sam grizzle vs phil hellmuth wsop '03 - 2/6‬‏ - YouTube">‪sam grizzle vs phil hellmuth wsop '03 - 2/6‬‏ - YouTube" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350">
 
#16
Re: Poker etiquette question

different places have different rules. With the verbal "you got it" a majority would give the pot to the guy even if both hands were flipped and Phil ones. A verbal before a 'cards speak' is binding in most places.

If phil mucked then the guy doesnt have to show for sure. But if Phil gave a verbal 'you win' and showed his then the room rules go. But I would think most people at the table would know the guy won from the verbal. only guy who has to show is the guy called. Since Phil conceded he then doesnt have to show either, but neither does the other guy. So phil showed, or didnt show, didnt watch the video, but he conceded so no need for the other guy to show even if phil decided to.

Either way its a phil hlemuth thing and he does this stuff more for attention and adding to his infamous reputation than anything else.


No one knows more about poker etiquette than Phil helmuth. despite how he acts, and 99% of it is an act, he understands the game and respects it. Phil Helmuth was a lot different type of player before the cameras showed every hand ever played. Now he is basically a wrestler who has to live the gimmick.
I thought Bellande didn't need to show once Phil verbally gave in his hand, and it appears that is the rule. Forget etiquette, it's a question of legality. You raise an interesting point, however, about Phil subsequently flipping his cards after verbally mucking them and whether Bellande had to then flip his over, too. Technically the hand is over once Phil mucked. He can't subsequently, two minutes later, flip his cards over and force Bellande to show IMO.
 
#17
Re: Poker etiquette question

Great topic!!

What's the rule about showing hands? If the opener (Hellmuth) refuses to show his hand after a call (Bellande), is that a fold? (This should be in the rules, not just etiquette)

In my opinion, it depends on where Phil's cards went during the muck<VAR id=yiv1942607465yui-ie-cursor></VAR>. If his cards were reasonably close to the discard pile, I would say that's a fold even though he was called. There can't be any doubt what his hole cards were, just in case Bellande was also bluffing and both hands need to be shown. I could be wrong, but I think Bellande needs to show his hand unless, in the dealer's opinion, Phil's hole cards have been discarded.
 

royboy

EOG Dedicated
#18
Re: Poker etiquette question

Bellande called Helmuth, therefore it's up to helmuth to show his hand or muck. Once Helmuth shows, Bellande must then show his cards to scoop the pot. If Phil mucks, Bellande can do the same and still scoop the pot.
 
#19
Re: Poker etiquette question

Etiquette does not pay the bills. Dealers are the referee.The players do not make up the rules. Let the dealer get in there and tell them what is the next step since Hellmuth is trying to belittle this guy. Hellmuth is the last guy to talk etiquette with.

Earlier in the hand, Hellmuth threw too much in the pot also, and had to have some chips returned to him. Because what came out of Hellmuth's mouth, 'I call him' instead of the extra chips being considered a raise were returned. So when Hellmuth said 'This is yours, the dealer could have said Hellmuth mucks and that Hellmuth folded his hand when he said that sentence before actually mucking the cards. Is it worth the risk of misunderstanding than simply seeing some cards tossed into the muck to know for sure? I am glad the guy stood his ground.
 
#20
Re: Poker etiquette question

I have to take Ballande's side here, Phil mucked his hand clearly and said it's yours take it. so Ballande is not obligated to show hand. just my opinion from playing live home games.
 

tblaze

EOG Addicted
#21
Re: Poker etiquette question

what were the house rules? rules win over etiquette but don't help in making friends but who plays poker to make friends?

i remember live game were two guys did about the same and one guy says, "flush" after he said it the other guy mucked..the guy who said flush lied and showed the bluff...he got an ass chewing from the guy who mucked but always, always protect your cards because what you think is right will not overide the rules
 

BLUFFLUSHPRO

EOG Enthusiast
#22
Re: Poker etiquette question

i honestly think Bellande should stop being a little bitch. Thinking that just because you show your cards will influence the future hands negatively is just being a donk.

If he shows his 9- it'll only help his image. Once he gets a monster- Phil will still think he's calling down weak.

it honestly isn't a big deal what so ever.
 

JT242

EOG Enthusiast
#23
Re: Poker etiquette question

Phil's has totally lost his ability to read the other players at the table...thats why he gets so upset
 
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