For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

trytrytry

trytrytry

All I do is trytrytry
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

Discreet Cat said:
The main potential issue is not DFS employees (with access to ownership percentages, or even the lineups of known winners) playing on competing sites. It's sharing the data from their own site with people who are playing on that same site. Because the info is more relevant there than it would be across the street.

What's being overlooked in all this (to an EXTREME degree) is that ownership percentages play a relatively minor role in selecting a winning lineup. There are LOTS of players who have low ownership. That doesn't mean they're going to go out and have a huge day on the field. In fact, most of them don't. The trick is in identifying WHICH low-percentage guys are going to go out and play well. And that's nothing that can be derived by "inside info". So, this whole ordeal is not exactly scandalous. Or at least, it's not nearly as scandalous as what's being portrayed in the media.

Incidentally, that was a very fine article by the people @ Forbes (the one posted above). Someone there gets it.
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dont agree with all of this. can you imagine the damage you could do if you and a smart group had computer modeling insights to the real pool hidden trifecta or pick 4 or pick 3 pools payouts (spot the overlay instantly and wager them in an instant) and could just computer blanket cover the overlays that you and only you know. perhaps add in a bit of handicapping to find that possible longshot low percentage guy/horse if you desire. Its like payday city for these sites and the info they have.

plus these sites with the now public (but known to all of us for years) insider data dont have to make plays if no overlays or soft spots are found, they dont have to bet every event or pool only the ones with overlays.. they can and do whatever they please....
 
A

ajt

EOG Dedicated
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

Discreet Cat said:
What's being overlooked in all this (to an EXTREME degree) is that ownership percentages play a relatively minor role in selecting a winning lineup. There are LOTS of players who have low ownership. That doesn't mean they're going to go out and have a huge day on the field. In fact, most of them don't. The trick is in identifying WHICH low-percentage guys are going to go out and play well. And that's nothing that can be derived by "inside info". So, this whole ordeal is not exactly scandalous. Or at least, it's not nearly as scandalous as what's being portrayed in the media.
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I think you are seriously underestimating the edge someone would have with access to ownership info.
 
ChiTownJoe

ChiTownJoe

EOG Dedicated
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

The GPP's are won by low ownership guys who "over perform". Did these guys steal the money or blantantly cheat? Answer is NO......Did they have a HUGE advantage over every player without this knowledge, which would eventually lead them to winning more GPP's? Answer is YES.
 
M

Mr Wonderful

EOG Veteran
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

trytrytry said:
dont agree with all of this. can you imagine the damage you could do if you and a smart group had computer modeling insights to the real pool hidden trifecta or pick 4 or pick 3 pools payouts (spot the overlay instantly and wager them in an instant) and could just computer blanket cover the overlays that you and only you know. perhaps add in a bit of handicapping to find that possible longshot low percentage guy/horse if you desire. Its like payday city for these sites and the info they have.
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Exactly why some tracks prohibit/discourage computer assisted betting.
 
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Discreet Cat

EOG Dedicated
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

ChiTownJoe said:
Disagree here, being able to structure your lineups around low ownership guys is what is going to win the large GFS's. Large enough bankrolls and you would be able to construct 500-1000 lineups based upon low ownership players. This is a HUGE advantage to have.
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Obviously it's preferable to have low % guys (who figure to perform well) in your lineup. Anyone with a brain knows this. Which is exactly the point. And even if you don't know exact percentages (because you're not a site employee with access to that info), you still know which guys are going to be widely-owned, and which guys won't be. You also know which guys are likely to fall somewhere in the middle.

As for the info being valuable, of course it is. Particularly so in mass-entry tournaments (where it's a virtual necessity to go against the grain, in order to boost your chances of garnering a top prize). You can't finish first in a 200,000 player field if the majority of your lineup is widely-owned. But you STILL need to pick the right players (duh). Simply knowing which guys are sparsely owned isn't nearly enough to get you over the hump. It's essentially just a push in the right direction.

As for the well-bankrolled guys flooding the tournaments with mass entries, yes, they certainly do it. And those guys do often end up taking down the big prizes. But that's not cheating. There's nothing preventing anyone else from doing the exact same thing (aside from money, or just a willingness to make that kind of investment).

This isn't like a scandal at one of the online poker sites, where a "super user" can see an opponent's hole cards, or a customer's money isn't available for withdrawal. It's pretty fucking far from that.

Is it right for employees to use inside info in making their own lineup decisions? Of course not. No one is disputing that. And it needs to be corrected. But it's not something that should have the New York Attorney General launching an official inquiry, either (which, incidentally, is what eventually resulted in the poker sites being shut down).

FWIW, the anti-fantasy sports argument has gotten shot down in court before, and that was PRIOR to it gaining wide acceptance from the major sports leagues. In this case, the major sports leagues are actual PARTNERS with the fantasy sports sites. So I very much doubt that anything will cone of this. The only real difference between then-and-now (aside from the backing of the leagues themselves, and major companies like Disney) is the Daily angle.
 
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Mr Wonderful

EOG Veteran
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

DraftKings CEO Jason Robins on Outside the Lines was asked if info Haskell had access to would provide a competitive advantage. "Of course"
 
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Discreet Cat

EOG Dedicated
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

ajt said:
I think you are seriously underestimating the edge someone would have with access to ownership info.
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Ownership info can be successfully estimated. You don't need to know the exact numbers (which aren't "exact" until lineups lock anyway).
 
ChiTownJoe

ChiTownJoe

EOG Dedicated
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

Discreet Cat said:
Obviously it's preferable to have low % guys (who figure to perform well) in your lineup. Anyone with a brain knows this. Which is exactly the point. And even if you don't know exact percentages (because you're not a site employee with access to that info), you still know which guys are going to be widely-owned, and which guys won't be. You also know which guys are likely to fall somewhere in the middle.

As for the info being valuable, of course it is. Particularly so in mass-entry tournaments (where it's a virtual necessity to go against the grain, in order to boost your chances of garnering a top prize). You can't finish first in a 200,000 player field if the majority of your lineup is widely-owned. But you STILL need to pick the right players (duh). Simply knowing which guys are sparsely owned isn't nearly enough to get you over the hump. It's essentially just a push in the right direction.

As for the well-bankrolled guys flooding the tournaments with mass entries, yes, they certainly do it. And those guys do often end up taking down the big prizes. But that's not cheating. There's nothing preventing anyone else from doing the exact same thing (aside from money, or just a willingness to make that kind of investment).

This isn't like a scandal at one of the online poker sites, where a "super user" can see an opponent's hole cards, or a customer's money isn't available for withdrawal. It's pretty fucking far from that.

Is it right for employees to use inside info in making their own lineup decisions? Of course not. No one is disputing that. And it needs to be corrected. But it's not something that should have the New York Attorney General launching an official inquiry, either (which, incidentally, is what eventually resulted in the poker sites being shut down).

FWIW, the anti-fantasy sports argument has gotten shot down in court before, and that was PRIOR to it gaining wide acceptance from the major sports leagues. In this case, the major sports leagues are actual PARTNERS with the fantasy sports sites. So I very much doubt that anything will cone of this. The only real difference between then-and-now (aside from the backing of the leagues themselves, and major companies like Disney) is the Daily angle.
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Are you a daily player?
 
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Discreet Cat

EOG Dedicated
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

Mr Wonderful said:
DraftKings CEO Jason Robins on Outside the Lines was asked if info Haskell had access to would provide a competitive advantage. "Of course"
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It's a competitive advantage, no doubt about it. But it's one that's being far overstated in the media. It's not "insider trading". That's when people essentially know results before they put their bets in. That's NOT what's going on here. Not by a longshot.
 
Hangover

Hangover

EOG Dedicated
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

Their biggest edge comes from the multi-entries. Otherwise player owned percentage info is overrated.
 
ChiTownJoe

ChiTownJoe

EOG Dedicated
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

Discreet Cat said:
How'd you guess?
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All the GPP's are top heavy in prizes, what skill does it take to buy 10% of the pool and structure/stack your lineups with low ownership players and the usual studs?

Full disclosure, only played golf at DK, loved it, did well for 2-3 months, missed winning a 15k 2nd prize by a missed putt and dropped to 12th and won a dime out of 11,000 entries ( I had 4 - others 100s). Earned full "bonus" and then lost deposit plus bonus.

My eyes were opened when I asked if I could download CSV's (entry - ownership data) for all golf contests. Was told only for the contests I was participating in, no way that should be the case. Every contest on the site should be able to be downloaded/analyzed for anyone.
 
M

Mr Wonderful

EOG Veteran
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

Discreet Cat said:
It's a competitive advantage, no doubt about it.
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And you don't have a problem with certain individuals using confidential data to gain a advantage over you and other players?

The only reason a player should have a advantage over another player is because he works harder not because he has access to information that nobody else has access to.
 
Y

yisman

EOG Master
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

ChiTownJoe said:
All the GPP's are top heavy in prizes, what skill does it take to buy 10% of the pool and structure/stack your lineups with low ownership players and the usual studs?

Full disclosure, only played golf at DK, loved it, did well for 2-3 months, missed winning a 15k 2nd prize by a missed putt and dropped to 12th and won a dime out of 11,000 entries ( I had 4 - others 100s). Earned full "bonus" and then lost deposit plus bonus.

My eyes were opened when I asked if I could download CSV's (entry - ownership data) for all golf contests. Was told only for the contests I was participating in, no way that should be the case. Every contest on the site should be able to be downloaded/analyzed for anyone.
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I've asked for information from DK and they won't provide anything, really.

I asked for standings from a contest I didn't join, they refused to share that.

I asked for ownership percentage from a contest I was in, they refused with that too. If you want to know why I couldn't look, it's because they do not display full standings on the site. They only show a certain number of entries, depending on the contest. You can download CSV/Excel to show the full standings, but that does not display ownership%, as far as I can tell. I was trying to find out how many lineups in a NASCAR contest had Kevin Harvick, IIRC. Harvick had crashed, so the lineups that you could view ownership% for did not have him.

So basically, you can only know ownership percentage for a player if at least one of the lineups on the leaderboard had him.


To clarify, both requests were regarding contests that had locked and started, so there was no conceivable reason not to share the information.
 
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Discreet Cat

EOG Dedicated
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

Mr Wonderful said:
And you don't have a problem with certain individuals using confidential data to gain a advantage over you and other players?

The only reason a player should have a advantage over another player is because he works harder not because he has access to information that nobody else has access to.
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Of course I have a problem with it. I just think the "scandal" aspect is being way overblown.
 
FairWarning

FairWarning

Bells Beer Connoisseur
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

Discreet Cat said:
Yes, for several years now. And a salary cap player for much longer than that.
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How many lineups/day on average?

I will not participate in any more of their big events. It's obvious there has been some insider dealings for a while. These sites allowing bots so people can play 1000 lineups was the last straw for me.
 
WVU

WVU

EOG Master
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

wasn't Mofome cleaning house in this for a while? Maybe he had inside info :+clueless
 
FairWarning

FairWarning

Bells Beer Connoisseur
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

WVU said:
wasn't Mofome cleaning house in this for a while? Maybe he had inside info :+clueless
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Maybe so but you would have to be lucky to play one entry and win good money. This could go down the path that online gambling/poker did. Without the little guys, the big guys will starve. A lot of people are pissed over this and will not go back. We'll see how sharp the whales are then as they are beating each other up instead.
 
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Discreet Cat

EOG Dedicated
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

FairWarning said:
How many lineups/day on average?

I will not participate in any more of their big events. It's obvious there has been some insider dealings for a while. These sites allowing bots so people can play 1000 lineups was the last straw for me.
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I don't mix it up too much. Usually just one primary lineup, and perhaps a variation or two. I don't invest heavily at all in tournaments; I much prefer the 50/50's. Tournaments are more a flyer than anything else.
 
scrimmage

scrimmage

What you contemplate you imitate
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

Mr Wonderful said:
I doubt the New York Attorney General will be only Attorney General asking lots of questions.
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Discreet Cat said:
Of course I have a problem with it. I just think the "scandal" aspect is being way overblown.
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DK and FD get investigated and regulated as a result of this "Scandal";barriers to entry go up for new competitors in the fantasy space,biggest players gain first mover advantage,any penalties are paid out of the big IPO's,in which investors buy shares with confidence when the field is tilted in their favor.
 
Y

yisman

EOG Master
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

wow

so Nevada joins the lists of states where DFS is illegal
 
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Discreet Cat

EOG Dedicated
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

Mr Wonderful said:
I think you will see more states follow Nevada and bar them from doing business till they are licensed and regulated.
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Still don't see how a Gaming Commission can either pass or enforce state laws. It's not up to them.

Not that I'm a lawyer or anything.
 
M

Mr Wonderful

EOG Veteran
Re: For the love of God, enough is enough DraftKings & FanDuel

Discreet Cat said:
Still don't see how a Gaming Commission can either pass or enforce state laws. It's not up to them.

Not that I'm a lawyer or anything.
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The do have some type of power to enforce laws in Nevada, what ever they don't have power to do the AG would enforce, I would imagine the actual cease and desist letters came from the AG's office.
 
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