Interesting note on the difference between a rigged election and a flawed election

#1
From electoral-vote.com:

When Is an Election Rigged?
Edward Foley, a professor of constitutional law at Ohio State University, has written an important piece about how to tell the difference between an imperfect election and a rigged election. It should be required reading for all Trump supporters and maybe Biden supporters as well. The central premise is that all elections have flaws. None of them are perfect. But the key difference between a flawed election and a rigged election is that in the former, the people's choice won despite the flaws whereas in the latter (rigged election), the faults changed the winner.

The elections of 1876 and 1884 were incredibly close. Samuel Tilden (D) won the popular vote in 1876 and should have won the electoral vote but for multiple shenanigans. In the end, a congressionally appointed commission composed of eight Republicans and seven Democrats voted along party lines to hand Rutherford B. Hayes (R) the keys to the White House (in exchange for ending reconstruction). This was a rigged election. In 1884, (Stephen) Grover Cleveland (D) won New York over James Blaine (R) by 1,047 votes despite allegations of ballot stuffing and more. But in the end, the leading Republican newspaper of its time, the New York Tribune, concluded that despite all the irregularities, Cleveland really did get more legitimate votes in New York, so Blaine conceded. This was a flawed election, but not a rigged one.

Foley says that a core tenet of the American electoral system is this: "Not every defect in the voting process renders an election invalid." There are some points to absorb here. If a foreign adversary spews out disinformation and manages to convince a large number of voters to vote a certain way and they vote that way of their own free will, that does not invalidate the election. Of course, if the adversary hacks the computers and changes vote totals, that is a different story. Also, disenfranchisement of voters through the legal process (as in Florida, where an appeals court upheld a state law requiring felons to pay fees and costs before voting) may be abhorrent, but does not invalidate the election. After all, the state legislature that passed the law was elected by the people and the judges were appointed by elected presidents and confirmed by the Senate according to law.

This year again, there is sure to be disinformation, both foreign and domestic. But an argument that "the voters were too stupid to realize they were acting like useful idiots" doesn't cut it. On the other hand, if thousands of voters are illegally removed from the voting rolls by a partisan secretary of state and their absence was more than the margin of victory in that state, that would invalidate that state's results. Similarly, if the postmaster general decides not to postmark absentee ballots and they are subsequently rejected for lack of a postmark, that would invalidate the election if the number of rejected ballots exceeds the winner's margin. Another thing that would invalidate the election is not letting people who arrived before the polls closed but who were still standing on line due to chaos in the polling place at closing time cast their ballots.

Foley suggests that if the election is flawed, but not so much that it has to be thrown out (i.e., the flaws didn't change the winner), leaders of the loser's party should declare that the other party won, even if the candidate won't. Of course, if the flaws change the result, we are in deep doodoo. As (Z) has pointed out before, the South's refusal to accept the result of the 1860 election (not because it had irrefutable flaws, but because it didn't like the result), led to the deaths of 800,000 Americans (in the Civil War). There might be a lesson there. (V) (bolding, underling, and underlined parenthetical thoughts mine)
 

FairWarning

Bells Beer Connoisseur
#6
Billy knows mail. Inside out, sideways and anything in between.


Not one person who cries about vote by mail has ever processed mail.

Not one reasonable example of high volume vote rigging, card manipulation, delay, forgery, theft.

It just don't work.
That’s BS because once it’s delivered, it’s out of the USPS hands. If it’s delivered to an apartment complex, can you prove that every person got their ballot and each voted? I could take my mother’s and uncle’s ballots and vote for them. Right there is fraud outside of the USPS control.
 
#7
That’s BS because once it’s delivered, it’s out of the USPS hands. If it’s delivered to an apartment complex, can you prove that every person got their ballot and each voted? I could take my mother’s and uncle’s ballots and vote for them. Right there is fraud outside of the USPS control.



how does the IRS do it....? social security numbers. with address. Same way banks do it. Been working for years.
 

FairWarning

Bells Beer Connoisseur
#10
if they really want to do it they can ...you are living in dream land. It is how hard they want to try and how much money they want to spend. When is the last time the hackers broke into your bank and stole all your money ???



NEVER HAPPENED...
A friend‘s daughter had her bank account compromised Yesterday, lost everything.

BTW, i am for voting by mail. It has to be national under one system. Right now, this seems like a rush job with no real coordination.
 
#12
A friend‘s daughter had her bank account compromised Yesterday, lost everything.

BTW, i am for voting by mail. It has to be national under one system. Right now, this seems like a rush job with no real coordination.


ATM'S can be hacked into with old software.. email tricks .otherwise do you think if they could get everyone's money ...why would they worry about elections.... ? they can do isolated attacks but nothing large scale with the banks. If they can send robots to mars they easily make the elections for everyone ....the question is do they really want to do it and how much would it cost.
 
#13
That’s BS because once it’s delivered, it’s out of the USPS hands. If it’s delivered to an apartment complex, can you prove that every person got their ballot and each voted? I could take my mother’s and uncle’s ballots and vote for them. Right there is fraud outside of the USPS control.

Doesn't happen. Each stolen card will get you 5 years and up to $250,000. USPS has it's own police force and they don't play. If a voter's card is in a mailbox of any kind it is USPS property. Complete with track and trace, security indicia, imaging and address verification.

You have never had a voter card stolen and reported, nor are you aware of any mass mail fraud that has influenced the result of an election.

I've overseen hundreds of these Reply Mail series, they run clean as a whistle. Theft or undeliverable basically non existent.

Trump's example was that kids run around the neighborhood stealing cards and bring them to a location where they are manipulated.

I lulzed. Hard.


https://www.nytimes.com/article/mail-in-vote-fraud-ballot.html
 
#15
https://www.nytimes.com/article/mail-in-vote-fraud-ballot.html
BILLYSINK said "I lulzed. Hard."


https://www.nytimes.com/article/mail-in-vote-fraud-ballot.html

...and then quoted the New York Times. seriously, he just quoted the NYT with a straight face, like that was news. and lulzed (hard) like he believed it. that's the level we're dealing with.


Hey dikkstikk. The article was dead on fact not some fukkin scenario out of the cloud of conservative conjecture.

I managed Multi Line optical readers, built mail plans, managed large local areas of collection and delivery. Value Stream process monkey.
I can pick up a piece of mail and tell you every stop it made, every employee who touched it along the way.

Your experience with male is infinitely greater than your knowledge of mail.


I couldn't give a lonely rat fukk if your "illection" was as dirty as your shorts guy, as a matter of fact I pray to the almighty that this election is so badly fukked up that you fukkin simpletons start shooting each other. The stupid side never wins that shit.


Long story short is the article is valid and you can go sukk a fukkin dikk

Stick to shit you know. Leggo or a bottle of glue or some shit.
 

FairWarning

Bells Beer Connoisseur
#16
Doesn't happen. Each stolen card will get you 5 years and up to $250,000. USPS has it's own police force and they don't play. If a voter's card is in a mailbox of any kind it is USPS property. Complete with track and trace, security indicia, imaging and address verification.

You have never had a voter card stolen and reported, nor are you aware of any mass mail fraud that has influenced the result of an election.

I've overseen hundreds of these Reply Mail series, they run clean as a whistle. Theft or undeliverable basically non existent.

Trump's example was that kids run around the neighborhood stealing cards and bring them to a location where they are manipulated.

I lulzed. Hard.


https://www.nytimes.com/article/mail-in-vote-fraud-ballot.html
My point is just because its your return address doesn't mean you voted. There are also 50 sets of rules for 50 states, thats a huge no-no.

Then you have these cases - https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...ots-from-new-jersey-july-primary-found-in-bin
 
#17
My point is just because its your return address doesn't mean you voted. There are also 50 sets of rules for 50 states, thats a huge no-no.

Then you have these cases - https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...ots-from-new-jersey-july-primary-found-in-bin
As soon as you report your card stolen and your identity is verified, the card is cancelled. The vote is void..

50 different sets of state rules has no effect on one federal mail service, mail processing does not change from state to state.

Every time someone steals a voter card, it is a federal offence. How many federal offenses have to be committed, without being caught, to swing a presidential election in someone's favor? There's a real good reason that no election has been reported as tainted by mail in ballots. You would need to steal thousands of ballots, flawlessly, fill them out manually, forge every signature impeccably, mail them all in different street letter boxes to avoid detection and hope no one calls in a theft. Everything is track and trace, from the time the cards are printed to the time the vote arrives at count.

Can you steal a voter's card? Most certainly, happens on a very limited basis.

Can you swing an election, stealing voter's cards? No, the process is pretty tight, the risk is not worth the return , detection is as easy as picking up the phone and cancellation is immediate.

As far as the article in the link, that mismanagement has nothing to do with the vote by mail process, those cards were mishandled by elections officials after delivery, I gave no idea what goes on in that process.
 
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