Kawhi Leonard is to blame for the Clippers collapse

kane

EOG master
LeBron a real leader who his teammates love playing with, and it showed on the court
 

jimmythegreek

The opening odds start here
We saw this when after he healed from his injury in SA. Loyalty out the window. Benjis baby. One and done in Toronto. Trade value will reach its peak with age and greed.
 

IWishIWasAPro

EOG Master
Exactly. Some of us have been saying this. He's one strange dude. You get paid the money you do to show up every game especially in the postseason.
 

jimmythegreek

The opening odds start here
LeBron a real leader who his teammates love playing with, and it showed on the court
Being a leader and earning the respect he deserves gave him 85 million more reasons why he should be locked as a Laker for at least the next 2 years.
 

kane

EOG master
Being a leader and earning the respect he deserves gave him 85 million more reasons why he should be locked as a Laker for at least the next 2 years.

If he's good enough, his kid will be in the league in three years, LeBron's goal is to play long enough to be in the league with his son
 

MrTop

EOG Master
eggs-actly .. just like vincent price would say. Kawhy did milk it. Lebron milked it the year before but members of EOG got on his case so he played his A game this year.
 

kane

EOG master
eggs-actly .. just like vincent price would say. Kawhy did milk it. Lebron milked it the year before but members of EOG got on his case so he played his A game this year.

LeBron's played 18 seasons and more minutes than anyone in history, he's earned the right to milk it, he's earned the right to sit games for "load management", but I doubt he shows up late for practice, I doubt he gets preferential treatment that piss off his teammates, Kawhi's a great player, but he doesn't have the LeBron resume that would make him entitled to act like a diva. Larry Bird was the first one at practice and the last one to leave, he was running the steps of the Boston Garden when his teammates weren't there, none of his teammates ever had a bad word to say about him, he was their best player and the hardest working player, unlike Kawhi the diva who requires special treatment that his teammates resented
 

MrTop

EOG Master
LeBron's played 18 seasons and more minutes than anyone in history, he's earned the right to milk it, he's earned the right to sit games for "load management", but I doubt he shows up late for practice, I doubt he gets preferential treatment that piss off his teammates, Kawhi's a great player, but he doesn't have the LeBron resume that would make him entitled to act like a diva. Larry Bird was the first one at practice and the last one to leave, he was running the steps of the Boston Garden when his teammates weren't there, none of his teammates ever had a bad word to say about him, he was their best player and the hardest working player, unlike Kawhi the diva who requires special treatment that his teammates resented



agree diva for kawhy .. Lebron may not be liked in all places but he does have class more then 95+% in NBA ... Except for his outfits which i think looks funny .
 

Heim

EOG Master
Lol, like other NBA mega stars don't get preferential treatment. At the bubble everyone had a hotel room, Lebron
had three floors.
 

FairWarning

Bells Beer Connoisseur
Lol, like other NBA mega stars don't get preferential treatment. At the bubble everyone had a hotel room, Lebron
had three floors.
Off court stuff really doesn't matter. Consistently showing up late to practice is disrespecting the team, players do hold grudges when things fall apart.
 
I highly doubt any of this directly led to blowing a 3-1 lead in a bubble playoff series. Most teams that are put together like this take a full year to gel and get it right. Lakers beat the odds with their patchwork building of a team around two stars, but the risk of them tripping up along the way with so many new players again this season is still high.
 

Patrick McIrish

OCCams raZOR
LeBron's played 18 seasons and more minutes than anyone in history, he's earned the right to milk it, he's earned the right to sit games for "load management", but I doubt he shows up late for practice, I doubt he gets preferential treatment.......


GOLD! Jerry, that's GOLD!!
 

Patrick McIrish

OCCams raZOR
Off court stuff really doesn't matter.


Disagree.

Off court stuff matters......

When certain guys get specific lodging, travel, special treatment from the team for themselves and their posses it makes a difference.

Just a few examples. In fact I'd argue team chemistry is built just as much off the court as it is on in the NBA.

Kane dead right on Bird, LeBrick is not even in the same solar system though, guys despise him around the league.
 

John Kelly

Born Gambler
Staff member
LeBron's played 18 seasons and more minutes than anyone in history, he's earned the right to milk it, he's earned the right to sit games for "load management", but I doubt he shows up late for practice, I doubt he gets preferential treatment that piss off his teammates, Kawhi's a great player, but he doesn't have the LeBron resume that would make him entitled to act like a diva. Larry Bird was the first one at practice and the last one to leave, he was running the steps of the Boston Garden when his teammates weren't there, none of his teammates ever had a bad word to say about him, he was their best player and the hardest working player, unlike Kawhi the diva who requires special treatment that his teammates resented


Cannot argue with KANE though I hate to see Kawhi dissed or downgraded.

I credit Kawhi for improving his jumper as he progressed through his NBA career.

How can you pooh-pooh either LeBron or Kawhi?

I love 'em both.

Big edge for Kawhi moving forward: He's 29 while LeBron turns 36 later this month.
 

Viejo Dinosaur

EOG Master
Kawhi will never reach LeBron status........Toronto was lucky to win an NBA Championship....

Kawhi’s basket at the buzzer from the corner hit the rim four or five times to defeat the Sixers in a seventh game on their way to the finals....
 

jimmythegreek

The opening odds start here
Kawhi will never reach LeBron status........Toronto was lucky to win an NBA Championship....

Kawhi’s basket at the buzzer from the corner hit the rim four or five times to defeat the Sixers in a seventh game on their way to the finals....
That was classic anticipation. It could dance on that rim as long as it wants so long as it falls.
 

kane

EOG master
[QUOTE="WildBill, post: 7665340, member: 4128"]I highly doubt any of this directly led to blowing a 3-1 lead in a bubble playoff series. Most teams that are put together like this take a full year to gel and get it right. Lakers beat the odds with their patchwork building of a team around two stars, but the risk of them tripping up along the way with so many new players again this season is still high.[/QUOTE]

Did the Kawhi situation directly lead to them blowing the 3-1 lead? No, probably not directly, but indirectly I think it played a factor, things like bad team chemistry have a way of seeping into play on the court, the same thing happened a couple years ago in Boston, the Celtics still had a good team and made a playoff run, but things weren't good in the locker room due to chemistry issues with Kyrie. If you look at a team like the Heat, watching them play you can see the chemistry they have, you can see how much they enjoy playing with each other, how they openly root for each other, how the players celebrate their teammates success like it was their own, that stuff matters, and the Clippers were a team that didn't play for each other, and ultimately is cost them
 

kane

EOG master
Cannot argue with KANE though I hate to see Kawhi dissed or downgraded.

I credit Kawhi for improving his jumper as he progressed through his NBA career.

How can you pooh-pooh either LeBron or Kawhi?

I love 'em both.

Big edge for Kawhi moving forward: He's 29 while LeBron turns 36 later this month.

Hey, I got nothing against Kawhi as a player, I mean what's not to like, he defends, he scores the ball, rebounds, he's easily one of the best in the game. All I'm saying is to be considered a superstar you have to be a team leader, you can't show up late for practice, you can't get special treatment from the coaches, you have to be "one of the guys", if you act like a diva, your teammates will resent it, and it's not like Kawhi earned anything with his new teammates, if he had stayed in Toronto he might have gotten away with showing up late for practice and missing a bunch of games, he earned enough capital in Toronto to act that way, but he was new in LA, he hadn't earned the right to act like he's special, he should have just fit in with the rest of his teammates rather than act like his shit don't stink
 

kane

EOG master
GOLD! Jerry, that's GOLD!!

Pat, when I said LeBron doesn't get special treatment, I should have been more precise. Of course a guy like Lebron will get treated different in certain situations, but not in the way that would alienate him with his teammates, whatever special treatment he receives doesn't piss off his teammates and ruin team chemistry. The special treatment Kawhi got ruined their team chemistry and the team resented him, that clearly was never the case with LeBron last year
 

John Kelly

Born Gambler
Staff member
Hey, I got nothing against Kawhi as a player, I mean what's not to like, he defends, he scores the ball, rebounds, he's easily one of the best in the game. All I'm saying is to be considered a superstar you have to be a team leader, you can't show up late for practice, you can't get special treatment from the coaches, you have to be "one of the guys", if you act like a diva, your teammates will resent it, and it's not like Kawhi earned anything with his new teammates, if he had stayed in Toronto he might have gotten away with showing up late for practice and missing a bunch of games, he earned enough capital in Toronto to act that way, but he was new in LA, he hadn't earned the right to act like he's special, he should have just fit in with the rest of his teammates rather than act like his shit don't stink


Understood, KANE.

Like you, I believe in team chemistry.

Counterintuitively, team cohesion may be more important at the professional level than high school or college basketball.

My friend, David Dineen, played Division I college basketball at Cal Poly-SLO.

He once criticized my handicapping when he said I place too much emphasis on team chemistry.

Dineen claimed, "Sometimes the only player who can hit a contested jumper with the shot clock winding down is the biggest asshole on the team."
 

kane

EOG master
Disagree.

Off court stuff matters......

When certain guys get specific lodging, travel, special treatment from the team for themselves and their posses it makes a difference.

Just a few examples. In fact I'd argue team chemistry is built just as much off the court as it is on in the NBA.

Kane dead right on Bird, LeBrick is not even in the same solar system though, guys despise him around the league.


I agree off the court stuff matters. Back in 2008 when the Celtics traded for Ray Allen and KG, the team took an offseason trip to a foreign country (can't recall which one), anyway, during that trip those two, along with Paul Pierce, got to really know each other and formed a great relationship, throughout the course of the season the players credited that trip with the reason why they had great chemistry, it was built before they actually started playing together
 

Heim

EOG Master
When you make it in the Association you always have someone in your ear....not necessarily for your best interest.
With LeBron it's his boyhood pal and now agent, for Leonard it's his meddling uncle. The list is endless with these
'consultants'.....luckily the aforementioned have the talent to rise above all that, others don't.

Remember Chris Washburn?
 

John Kelly

Born Gambler
Staff member
I remember Chris Washburn.

Scored 222 points in a short career derailed by drug abuse.

The Warriors selected Washburn third overall in the 1986 NBA Draft.
 

Heim

EOG Master
I can't believe Doc would call off practice if PG or KL didn't want to practice....
 

Patrick McIrish

OCCams raZOR
I agree off the court stuff matters. Back in 2008 when the Celtics traded for Ray Allen and KG, the team took an offseason trip to a foreign country (can't recall which one), anyway, during that trip those two, along with Paul Pierce, got to really know each other and formed a great relationship, throughout the course of the season the players credited that trip with the reason why they had great chemistry, it was built before they actually started playing together


Yeah and the other side of the coin I remember how much the other Giants used to dislike Bonds for all the special treatment he got......

Not only for him but his posse as well.

Off field things can certainly build and/or disrupt team chemistry.
 

Patrick McIrish

OCCams raZOR
Understood, KANE.

Like you, I believe in team chemistry.

Counterintuitively, team cohesion may be more important at the professional level than high school or college basketball.

My friend, David Dineen, played Division I college basketball at Cal Poly-SLO.

He once criticized my handicapping when he said I place too much emphasis on team chemistry.

Dineen claimed, "Sometimes the only player who can hit a contested jumper with the shot clock winding down is the biggest asshole on the team."


Maybe a lack of chemistry doesn't affect the stud/biggest asshole on the team but it does everyone else?

Not a Division I athlete but played on a lot of teams up and through HS, I firmly believe guys that like each other and are close play better together.

They are loose and enjoy seeing each other do well.

Not going to stake my reputation on it or anything but seen it more than once......

Teams not so talented over-perform expectations, and stud teams where guys didn't get alone under-perform.

Just my personal experience.
 
[QUOTE="WildBill, post: 7665340, member: 4128"]I highly doubt any of this directly led to blowing a 3-1 lead in a bubble playoff series. Most teams that are put together like this take a full year to gel and get it right. Lakers beat the odds with their patchwork building of a team around two stars, but the risk of them tripping up along the way with so many new players again this season is still high.

Did the Kawhi situation directly lead to them blowing the 3-1 lead? No, probably not directly, but indirectly I think it played a factor, things like bad team chemistry have a way of seeping into play on the court, the same thing happened a couple years ago in Boston, the Celtics still had a good team and made a playoff run, but things weren't good in the locker room due to chemistry issues with Kyrie. If you look at a team like the Heat, watching them play you can see the chemistry they have, you can see how much they enjoy playing with each other, how they openly root for each other, how the players celebrate their teammates success like it was their own, that stuff matters, and the Clippers were a team that didn't play for each other, and ultimately is cost them[/QUOTE]

I don't question that chemistry is important, but I think its a bit overrated. I think there is bad chemistry, which definitely kills off a team's ability to perform, then there's a lot of in the middle stuff where teams can perform, and then there's great chemistry where everyone knows their role and does it for the greater good of the team. If it was really bad chemistry that ship would have crashed by the midway point of the season and trades would have been made at the deadline. They wouldn't have won a 2 seed and they wouldn't have gotten to one game short of the WCF. I do think the Clippers brass saw Doc was too much a players coach in letting this go and the next coach no matter who they hired would have to hold Kawhi and PG more accountable, but that's what you'd hope superstar players would want to respond with after such an ending to the season.

The whole load management stuff is ridiculous, take 10-15 games off midseason with an "injury", but otherwise play the schedule that everyone else does. This stuff comes from greedy agents who are selling these guys on the idea that they don't want to be LBJ and have their bodies brutally beaten by the time they are 35. They think if they can be load managed they can get one more huge deal, as you can see he's aiming for with the way he structured the contract he has now. That's what I hear is the reason why the Clippers are putting up with this shit, if they don't he'll opt to go elsewhere. But his agent has sold him on the idea that he can keep getting $30-40m a year until he's 40. If it works every star in the league is going to do this, and because I think his teammates and coaches know what he's doing, they aren't thinking about it as poorly as the fans or old school thinkers might be.
 

kane

EOG master
Maybe a lack of chemistry doesn't affect the stud/biggest asshole on the team but it does everyone else?

Not a Division I athlete but played on a lot of teams up and through HS, I firmly believe guys that like each other and are close play better together.

They are loose and enjoy seeing each other do well.

Not going to stake my reputation on it or anything but seen it more than once......

Teams not so talented over-perform expectations, and stud teams where guys didn't get alone under-perform.

Just my personal experience.


The Miami Heat in the bubble are a perfect example of this. The Heat didn't have the talent of Milwaukee or Boston, but they had great chemistry, they really enjoyed playing with each other, I follow the team very close, and in all my years of watching them, I don't think any Heat team in history had the type of chemistry this one did, the big three era included, everyone rooting for each other, everyone celebrating their teammates success as if it was their own. Their improbable run to the finals was fun to watch, Jimmy Butler is their best player, and the guy has no ego, I mean none, he's the anti-Kawhi, all Jimmy wants to do is win, if he scores 4 points and the team wins, he's just as happy as if he had a triple double, he doesn't care how many shots he takes, in fact during the season there were times when Spo had to tell him to shoot it more, he was being too unselfish at times, anyway when I read your post, especially the part I highlighted, I immediately thought of the Heat as a perfect example
 

Patrick McIrish

OCCams raZOR
The Heat are a great example, I'm not even a fan but enjoyed watching them down the stretch and through the playoffs.

I think the Rays too are an example, they are tight and get off beating the big market teams with a lot of money to spend......
 
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