More fun with Cantor

#1
Say What — Sports Betting

Posted on January 7, 2012 by Robert Walker
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I have not seen a more convoluted explanation in my life than this drivel from Cantor Gaming.

Well, once when I asked my ex girlfriend why she was getting home so late — but that’s another story.

From Wagerminds.com:

Well, let’s look as the Cantor Gaming IPO documents. In their financial overview, Cantor explains:

We employ a risk management team that creates a statistical data base that is comprised of historical data and mathematical algorithms overlaid by injury reports, weather conditions, and other anomalies, to assess the most likely outcome of a sporting event. These algorithmic models are used for risk management, as well as to manage our In-Running sports wagering offering. These are used in the posting of odds/lines which patrons may wager on. We believe that our risk management team, aided with our superior technology, provides odds/lines with a high degree of credibility. This permits us to accept larger wagers than our competitors, as our technology provides us immediate visibility to our risk.


What. Really.

I have been somewhat vocal in my criticism of Cantor Gaming and that is before I read its IPO.

They certainly don’t subscribe to Occam’s Razor which states that simpler explanations are, all things being equal, generally better than more complex ones.

If Cantor Gaming could just develop an algorithm to explain its methodology.

Cantor Gaming came into Nevada with guns a blazing, which is fine if you have enough ammunition. They did not. They have simply misjudged the Nevada market, and in my mind have bought their way in and overpaid in the process. It’s curious that the three most prominent companies that run satellite sports books are looking to get out at a time when Cantor Gaming is aggressively pursing the same market.

Only time will tell but for Cantor Gaming, the clock is ticking.
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Source: http://rwalkersports.com (http://s.tt/158kE)
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Iona

EOG Dedicated
#4
Re: More fun with Cantor

Unfortunately for me, a Giant fan, their algorithmic model with all its statistical data is predicting that Atlanta will cover today. They have been dealing Giants - 2 1/2 for quite sometime now when all the others are sitting at - 3. It looks to me like they have an opinion on this one, similar to their correct opinion on New England over Denver a few weeks back.
 

Iona

EOG Dedicated
#7
Re: More fun with Cantor

- 115 last night, I think. I do not know where they are now.

Yes, IMHO Cantor has an opinion on the game and it's Atlanta.
 

Heim

EOG Master
#10
Re: More fun with Cantor

You're very critical of Cantor.......I have a feeling if they offered you a managers position
in their ever expanding territory you would take it.
 
#12
Re: More fun with Cantor

Jimmy Vaccaro ran a very nice book at the Mirage, when Jimmy left it got ran into the ground and still a shithole today.
 
#15
Re: More fun with Cantor

Robert - How did Vaccaro get away with being the Mirage sportsbook director while simultaneously touting, with ads saying "I'll teach you to beat the books" and similar.
I can't imagine that situation has ever existed before or since.

Since his numbers matched everyone else 99% of the time, amd he was claiming that his sports picks would beat the books, he was either an incompetent sportsbook director who sports bettors could make money off of by buying his plays, or a lying tout.
Or both.
 

pbovi

EOG Dedicated
#16
Re: More fun with Cantor

Cantor is the best thing that happened to this town.
1) I can get a line that is not just some rank odds maker cloning another. Sometimes they are wrong and sometimes they are right, but at least they express an opinion which is a favorable situation for the bettor.
2) I get a comfortable seat, not some elementary school chair that proliferates the MGM properties, with the basic exception of the Mirage
3) I can use a computer in the book where I can plug in
4) I can see the odds of the competitors from my seat
5) I can bet live
6) I can go smoke free. Smokers can step to the side and still see the screens at most venues.
7) Speaking of screens; Have you been to Mandalay lately. It's like you're watching 3D screens without the glasses. When is the last time the Mirage screens were upgraded? Typical of most.
Cantor offers all High Def viewing.
8) They offer first and 2nd half totals on all CBB and CFB games. (To this day it is still a question as to whether a total is going to be posted on a TV game in CFB)
9) Lines are not changed and I am not limited to 2 or 3 dimes on a CFB total (Mirage in the day)

Cantor is bettor friendly. The rest of these books/casinos are not. They believe the house should win (sense of entitlement) and when they feel the player enjoys any advantage they do their best to seize it. Years ago at your book I can recall restrictions placed upon NFL teasers during a year when the favorites were covering at a high rate. Do you recall that?

That mentality is pervasive among the casinos who have slowly slipped in 6 to 5 black jack at the expense of the usual and customary 3 to 2. 6 to 5 is now the norm in some spots.

What Cantor has done is to force the dinosaurs to compete or realize their business model is extinct, except when dealing with the less sophisticated bettor, or those that do not care.

You are looking at this from the standpoint of profitability. Much of that will depend on whether their odds maker is correct in his assessments but do you really think these people care about that? They want a fair shot and a nice place to visit.
 

John Kelly

Born Gambler
Staff member
#17
Re: More fun with Cantor

Robert's a sharp guy but he's going to lose this argument with serious bettors.

Thanks for checking in, Paul.
 
#18
Re: More fun with Cantor

Cantor is the best thing that happened to this town.
1) I can get a line that is not just some rank odds maker cloning another. Sometimes they are wrong and sometimes they are right, but at least they express an opinion which is a favorable situation for the bettor.
2) I get a comfortable seat, not some elementary school chair that proliferates the MGM properties, with the basic exception of the Mirage
3) I can use a computer in the book where I can plug in
4) I can see the odds of the competitors from my seat
5) I can bet live
6) I can go smoke free. Smokers can step to the side and still see the screens at most venues.
7) Speaking of screens; Have you been to Mandalay lately. It's like you're watching 3D screens without the glasses. When is the last time the Mirage screens were upgraded? Typical of most.
Cantor offers all High Def viewing.
8) They offer first and 2nd half totals on all CBB and CFB games. (To this day it is still a question as to whether a total is going to be posted on a TV game in CFB)
9) Lines are not changed and I am not limited to 2 or 3 dimes on a CFB total (Mirage in the day)

Cantor is bettor friendly. The rest of these books/casinos are not. They believe the house should win (sense of entitlement) and when they feel the player enjoys any advantage they do their best to seize it. Years ago at your book I can recall restrictions placed upon NFL teasers during a year when the favorites were covering at a high rate. Do you recall that?

That mentality is pervasive among the casinos who have slowly slipped in 6 to 5 black jack at the expense of the usual and customary 3 to 2. 6 to 5 is now the norm in some spots.

What Cantor has done is to force the dinosaurs to compete or realize their business model is extinct, except when dealing with the less sophisticated bettor, or those that do not care.

You are looking at this from the standpoint of profitability. Much of that will depend on whether their odds maker is correct in his assessments but do you really think these people care about that? They want a fair shot and a nice place to visit.




Well posted SIR........


Speaking of Cantor and blackjack...........The M has some very good blackjack, so I've been told.
 
#19
Re: More fun with Cantor

Robert - How did Vaccaro get away with being the Mirage sportsbook director while simultaneously touting, with ads saying "I'll teach you to beat the books" and similar.
I can't imagine that situation has ever existed before or since.

Since his numbers matched everyone else 99% of the time, amd he was claiming that his sports picks would beat the books, he was either an incompetent sportsbook director who sports bettors could make money off of by buying his plays, or a lying tout.
Or both.


Wrong...........see BOB GREGORKA.
 
#21
Re: More fun with Cantor

firstly the cantor lean is most likely not an opinion but is there to arbitrage with a large player...i think cantor plans to be "the guy" if interstate gambling ever happens...i like the flowchart, think it is meant to be a joke
 
#26
Re: More fun with Cantor

At various times we dealt a future book on the Derby and the Breeders Cup Championship.
We got lit up everytime.

It's a full time job in itself. The final straw for me was the year the favorite was injured in the Classic Future and we took him down, but failed to move the odds on the other horses enough to compensate.

It was my fault completely. When I came in the next morning and found out about the injury, the damage had been done and we were looking at losses on nearly every horse that would start.

Suffice it say, I was done.

This was truly a case of the bettor having so much more information than we did back then.

And it wasn't a big enough draw to keep it up.

Let the beatings begin.
 
#27
Re: More fun with Cantor

To answer another question about Jimmy. I never worked with Jimmy and I thought that he started touting when he left, but I'm not sure.
 
#28
Re: More fun with Cantor

PBOVI -- Those are all fair statements. Television upgrades are, or should be constant in the sports book. However, it took me several years to get the big screens in the Mirage like I wanted. We had spent so much on LED boards originally, that to dispose of them in favor of screens was not met favorably.

I don't believe that Cantor books with a particular lean, I don't think 2.5 -120 is a lean if the whole world is at 3. I like it better because you don't have to refund all of the bets, but a lot of you guys were the first to complain when we went to -120 and your heads exploded at -130. I think Cantors line is more a product of its bets than anything else.

Kudos to Cantor for being aggressive on second half college basketball.

And yes two team teasers in the NFL were a problem. Nobody knew what the right line should be which is why you see anywhere from -120 to -150 on two teamers. We adjusted our odds, but also gave you an extra half point in college football, 6.5, 7 and 7.5 which I see nobody ever talks about.

Two team teasers are like Q's in horse racing. The same pros are on the same games always.
 
#29
Re: More fun with Cantor

"The same pros are on the same games always"

The idiots were too.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to tease the 6, 7, and 8 point favorites below 3.

Another math fuck up that some of us were taking advantage of in the 80's.

Took forever for the Books AND sharp Bettors to see the value.

:lol
 
#30
Re: More fun with Cantor

At various times we dealt a future book on the Derby and the Breeders Cup Championship.
We got lit up everytime.

It's a full time job in itself. The final straw for me was the year the favorite was injured in the Classic Future and we took him down, but failed to move the odds on the other horses enough to compensate.

It was my fault completely. When I came in the next morning and found out about the injury, the damage had been done and we were looking at losses on nearly every horse that would start.

Suffice it say, I was done.

This was truly a case of the bettor having so much more information than we did back then.

And it wasn't a big enough draw to keep it up.

Let the beatings begin.
I completely agree with you on that!

I never used future horse betting and HATED NASCAR and soccer.

The only action you get is from sharp people who know the sport.

No way!
 

Heim

EOG Master
#31
Re: More fun with Cantor

I agree with the ambiance friendly comments by Bovi......at that they excel. However
they have a very elitist attitude with special events (SB, March Madness et al.). You're
not allowed to sit in their book unless you have an account with them. All the seats are
reserved for account holders. So if you like giving Cantor all your private info with a 1k
deposit go for it. They act like it's a privilege to have a seat in their book much like the
NYSE floor. That's got to change.
 
#32
Re: More fun with Cantor

I agree with the ambiance friendly comments by Bovi......at that they excel. However
they have a very elitist attitude on sporting special events. You're not allowed to
sit in their book unless you have an account with them. All the seats are reserved
for account holders. So if you like giving Cantor all your private info with a 1k deposit
go for it. They act like it's a privilege to have a seat in their book much like the NYSE
floor. That's got to change.

I will never give out my private info to anyone!!!!

Never did and never will!
 

pbovi

EOG Dedicated
#33
Re: More fun with Cantor

PBOVI -- Those are all fair statements. Television upgrades are, or should be constant in the sports book. However, it took me several years to get the big screens in the Mirage like I wanted. We had spent so much on LED boards originally, that to dispose of them in favor of screens was not met favorably.

I don't believe that Cantor books with a particular lean, I don't think 2.5 -120 is a lean if the whole world is at 3. I like it better because you don't have to refund all of the bets, but a lot of you guys were the first to complain when we went to -120 and your heads exploded at -130. I think Cantors line is more a product of its bets than anything else.

Kudos to Cantor for being aggressive on second half college basketball.

And yes two team teasers in the NFL were a problem. Nobody knew what the right line should be which is why you see anywhere from -120 to -150 on two teamers. We adjusted our odds, but also gave you an extra half point in college football, 6.5, 7 and 7.5 which I see nobody ever talks about.

Two team teasers are like Q's in horse racing. The same pros are on the same games always.
Thank you for the acknowledgement. Personally I never minded nor do I currently mind 120 or 125 on football if it was justified in the number. 130 would be a problem. I also appreciate what the MGM is doing with respect to NBA totals in hiking the money up and maintaining the number. It gives me an option and options are always a plus. If I don't like what I see I can walk across the street. As far as the give back on College Football teasers, realistically speaking, these types of wagers have proven to be cash cows for the house. Not to be confrontational, but as I said, as soon as the tide turns the house looks to seize the advantage. Surely, there are no bookmakers whining as a result of the Steeler upset yesterday as Pitt was in the eyes of many a guaranteed teaser cover. As with anything you ride the ups and downs as the tide always turns, as it did in a big way yesterday. If you don't want to ride it out, the best thing would have have been to limit them at a dime the same way Walmart puts limits on their loss leader items that are designed to get you into the store. Btw 2.5/20 was in my eyes a bargain yesterday and I played it. No way I play it at 3 since I figured it to be a close game.
 

pbovi

EOG Dedicated
#34
Re: More fun with Cantor

I will never give out my private info to anyone!!!!

Never did and never will!
That is not completely accurate. You are correct in that they give priority to account holders, however in all the time I have been going there, I have never seen anyone asked to give up their seat in favor of an account holder. Only on a a few select Sundays at the Hard Rock did the place fill up, and even then many of those seated did not have accounts.. As the season waned the place was maybe half full. On Monday nights I have been at the Cosmo where it's me and 5 or 6 others. I gather on a night like tonight they will fill up, but that would be an aberration.
 
#35
Re: More fun with Cantor

That is not completely accurate. You are correct in that they give priority to account holders, however in all the time I have been going there, I have never seen anyone asked to give up their seat in favor of an account holder. Only on a a few select Sundays at the Hard Rock did the place fill up, and even then many of those seated did not have accounts.. As the season waned the place was maybe half full. On Monday nights I have been at the Cosmo where it's me and 5 or 6 others. I gather on a night like tonight they will fill up, but that would be an aberration.
I never said anything about the seats. That was another poster.

I just said I will never give out my private info to anyone.

That means I will never send money offshore if they ask for info. I will never open a phone account in Las Vegas. Nothing.

I just don't trust anyone I don't know ... especially a Casino!
 

2W2P2S

EOG Dedicated
#36
Re: More fun with Cantor

"The same pros are on the same games always"

The idiots were too.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to tease the 6, 7, and 8 point favorites below 3.

Another math fuck up that some of us were taking advantage of in the 80's.

Took forever for the Books AND sharp Bettors to see the value.

:lol
Wha?
 
#37
Re: More fun with Cantor

In terms of teasers, you are right there are no comparison between college and pro. That is why when we increased the odds on two teamers in the NFL, we allowed for an extra half point in college football.

It was a give and take. The problem with NFL teasers is you are not really booking it, just hoping that enough lose.

After years of analysis we are still not sure what you should lay on a two team NFL teaser. Obviously if you were teasing a 3 point favorite to plus 3 you should probably not have to lay any juice as there is no value.

However, that is not the bets that we get. So you make everyone lay extra juice to compensate for the wiseguy teasers. Not the greatest solution for certain.

And I am on an anti Cantor campaign because they have been so disingenous. That does not mean I don't think they have comfortable chairs and pretty nice books. Customer service is an all together different issue, however.

And there are few forums to rail against them since they advertise with everyone. They have bought the critics silence. That's a little over dramatic, I realize.
 
#38
Re: More fun with Cantor

And I wanted to add for the record that I am a huge fan of JK. I believe he has a positive affect on anything on any endeavor that he is involved with. I don't always agree with him, but I believe he has been a nice asset for Nevada sports betting.
 
#39
Re: More fun with Cantor

What?

Nobody named them at that time, but there were some people who made a killing off them.

I heard someone say these 6 point teasers are a "wing nut" teaser or something like that ... like he invented them.

I played 6 point teasers when most sharp Bettors (pros) were still claiming they were sucker bets.

Yea right

:houra
 

2W2P2S

EOG Dedicated
#40
Re: More fun with Cantor

What?

Nobody named them at that time, but there were some people who made a killing off them.

I heard someone say these 6 point teasers are a "wing nut" teaser or something like that ... like he invented them.

I played 6 point teasers when most sharp Bettors (pros) were still claiming they were sucker bets.

Yea right

:houra
You were making a killing teasing down 6pt and 7pt favorites?
 
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