Question for Winky
- Thread starter WildBill
- Start date
I think time and score should matter to both players and referees.
Winky disagrees.
Winky disagrees.
Last edited:
winkyduck
TYVM Morgan William!!!
Damn right I do!
The one thing our Instructional Chair (Head of Educating us) stressed is: "If it is a foul in the first few seconds of the game it is a foul in the last few seconds of the game."
That "foul" on the Heat that set up the 3 FT to tie the game........BRUTAL! Ref saw anticipated something and then blew the whistle. My HS scheduler used to officiate D1 CBB. He is brutal on NBA refs - and he is right! I sent him that play via email and added if I made that call in a Boys Varsity game (Or High Level JV Game - like Mater De) I would working Girls Freshman games the rest of my career. And it would be completely justified. The NBA L2 minute report will say this was a bad call.
As for the call at the end of the game..............a "make-up" call. They can say whatever they want - "make-up" call. I have less of an issue with this one than the 3-pter before it.
Now - as for JK's first line................honestly - sometimes that is taken into account. In a close game at the end if there is a timeout I will get together with my partner(s) and talk about the game. What we think might happen. We will discuss time and situation. The ref that is the Lead (under the basket) is not the one who is responsible for the clock - almost always. So we will discuss that. We will make sure one person gets a good look at the play and the shooter's feet (if need be) and the other gets a good look at the clock although most officials are able to count down the last few seconds in their head so we don't need to look at the clock if the situation presents itself. We just want to make sure we get it right.
The part about the clock. I will never forget one game we had. The game was within 2 points. I forget if tied or a team was up 1 or 2. I was the lead and the play came my way so now the clock is the Trail (ref up top) call. As the lead I am responsible for the key and the sideline closest to me. In this case it was opposite the table. By dumb luck the play swung my way and the kid shot about a 15-footer maybe 5 feet in front of me. But because I faced the shooter I also could see the basket in the back court. This place had the backboards light up when the quarter ended. So the kid shoots and lets it go and it is clearly out of his hands when I see the backboard in the back court light up. So I know he let it go before it lit up meaning the shot was off in time. My partner, though, waived it off. The home team was happy because they won. That is until I blew my whistle, motioned everyone to the benches and my partner and I talked. I asked him what he saw. He said it was released too late. I then told him what I saw. I said I was 100% certain the shot was out of his hands a good 0.3 before the buzzer. I said I know the last second call is normally his but in this case I was 100% sure the shot should count. So after we talked it over we counted it. The home team was upset and the visiting team was happy and again I don't recall if the visiting team won the game or we went to OT. But in this case we got together and talked it over.
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winkyduck
TYVM Morgan William!!!
JK said time/score should matter. NOPE! I also had a game at San Clemente. Every game I have had there has been a good one and justified the 35-ish mile drive. It is the JV game against their biggest rival. We are tied at 47 with about 3 seconds left and the Varsity game is next. It is supposed to start at 7P and it is about 6:50P so the place is packed and it made for a great and loud atmosphere. Visiting team is inbounding the ball 84-feet away (HS court is 84-feet and we notice that 10-foot difference when our legs are saved from the shorter distance). I hand the ball to the player. He chucks one to just about the 3-point line in the front court. 2 players go for the ball. TWEEEEET! My partner calls a foul on SC. Visiting team goes to the line for 2 FT with about 2 seconds left, hits 1 and wins it. I have no idea if the call was good, or not since I had the worst view in the place. Should it have been called? It was a foul so YES! We asked to see a copy of the game from the Home team and "shockingly" we never got it.
A few years earlier, tie game with 20 seconds left. Home team has the ball inbounding it in their back court. No pressure on the ball so they get it to the front court. Clock is ticking down. Home team misses. Visiting team kid gets the rebound with about 2 seconds left. He is about 8 feet from midcourt so all he will have time to do is chuck up a half court bomb and hope. That is until, for some stupid reason, the home team kid decides to reach in. I have no choice. I have to blow the whistle and I did. Visiting team kid goes to the line for 2 (2B Bonus). I am hoping his misses both so the play doesn't decide the game. He misses the first. Made the 2nd and visiting team wins by 1. I felt bad about it but I made the right call. The home team coach even said so and my Instructional Chair was there since the home team was the one his grandson played for. He spoke to me after the game and even though his grandson's team lost he said it was the right call and he congratulated me for having the guts to make it.
The #1 thing I take into account when deciding whether to blow my whistle is: Impact and Advantage. Was an Advantage gained because of the play? Did the potential foul create an Impact on the game? If so - TWEEEEEEEET! If not - NOPE!
One situation I do a lot is: Team A has the ball in the frontcourt. A player from Team B is down low and in good rebounding position. A kid from Team A "dislodges" (Refs love using this word) the kid from Team B to the point of where Team A player is where Team B player was. If it is flagrant the whistle gets blown and a foul is called. If not I let the play go. If a basket is made or the ball bounces clear the other way - no foul is called but I make sure the Team A player knows I saw what he did since what happened had no impact or advantage gained on it.
Where things get dicey is when Team A dislodges Team B and 3 seconds later the ball lands right where the Team B player was but now the Team A player is there. NOW the whistle gets blown and a foul is called. Where it gets dicey is most people were looking at the ball and no one (or almost no one) saw the push 3 seconds earlier and wonder how I could call a foul when they didn't see anything bad happen. The Team A player knows what he did so he says nothing and the telling the coach usually calm things down but in this case the call or no call is determined by the play and what did/didn't happen.
I will end this by saying: If officials called everything - you would hate the game. One day I did a 3rd/4th grade Girls game. Yes - it was as brutal as it sounds but the pay was nice and it wasn't much work. As you can imagine you let A LOT go. Parents/Coaches not only understand they want it that way. But this one day at halftime we get some mother come to us and say we are doing a terrible job. We are letting a lot go and we need to call what we see. We ask her: Do you want us to call everything we see? She says: YES! OK lady - you got it. So 3Q starts and we call everything. In this league players have to play defense inside their own 3 point circle until the ball crosses half court so if someone travels or double dribbles we let it go. Not now. We call everything. The coaches and parents are wondering WTF is going on. What are we doing? We then point to this one woman and make sure everyone in the gym knows she said we needed to call everything so we were. EVERYONE in the gym looks at her and gives her an "evil eye." She is furious and leaves the gym. As soon as she does we go back to calling things the way we should and everyone is happy.
I will be by a coach while the play is in front of them. Every so often I will hear something like, "You missed a travel on (the other team)." Yes - I did. And I let the coach know that. I will say to them, "You mean the one caused by your player holding him?" meaning I know the kid walked but I let it go because it was caused by your kid fouling him. Now - you were saying? We also know who we have whistled for a few fouls early on. If I know the big guy has 2 fouls on him and he is spending the game banging down low with the other big guy if that big guy does something to commit his 3rd foul in 1h and I can "Pass it off" on someone else - I will. I will call it on the PG figuring he is less of a danger to foul out than the big guy. I did this once. I called the foul on the PG who insisted he never touched him. So we go to shoot FTs and the PG is right next to me. I tell him I know you didn't foul him - your big guy did but if I call it on the big guy that is #3 (out of 5) on him so I passed it off on you. The PG profusely thanked me for it after he knew what I did. Having said that if the big guy is a dunderhead and keeps fouling we figure the kid is too stupid to play in the game and we call them and get him out of the game.
So a lot goes into blowing the whistle. I know Rail rips refs - and he is more right than wrong. But I also know Rail wouldn't last 1Q of a high level BJV or Varsity game. Just know reffing in any sport is not as easy as it looks. But that "foul" on the 3-pter was brutal.
JK - did the refs do the right thing here in swallowing their whistle on this play? HS/CBB rules (and this was played under mostly CBB rules - and this was one of them) state: IF an offensive player CLEARLY runs out of bounds to try and evade a defender that is a violation. Ref bows their whistle and ball goes to the other team. Watch at around 5 seconds the Eagles guy CLEARLY runs OOB, emerges on the sideline inbounds and receives the ball. THAT IS A VIOLATION - AS EASY A CALL AS ANY REF WILL EVER HAVE! Ref did NOT blow the whistle. Play gets passed around for the $1M winning trey. You wanna tell us the right call was made - or not made - here? How would you feel if you were on the other team? Now Eagles might still win it but not on this shot. I ripped TBT on IG/Twitter for it and I am 100% right!
A few years earlier, tie game with 20 seconds left. Home team has the ball inbounding it in their back court. No pressure on the ball so they get it to the front court. Clock is ticking down. Home team misses. Visiting team kid gets the rebound with about 2 seconds left. He is about 8 feet from midcourt so all he will have time to do is chuck up a half court bomb and hope. That is until, for some stupid reason, the home team kid decides to reach in. I have no choice. I have to blow the whistle and I did. Visiting team kid goes to the line for 2 (2B Bonus). I am hoping his misses both so the play doesn't decide the game. He misses the first. Made the 2nd and visiting team wins by 1. I felt bad about it but I made the right call. The home team coach even said so and my Instructional Chair was there since the home team was the one his grandson played for. He spoke to me after the game and even though his grandson's team lost he said it was the right call and he congratulated me for having the guts to make it.
The #1 thing I take into account when deciding whether to blow my whistle is: Impact and Advantage. Was an Advantage gained because of the play? Did the potential foul create an Impact on the game? If so - TWEEEEEEEET! If not - NOPE!
One situation I do a lot is: Team A has the ball in the frontcourt. A player from Team B is down low and in good rebounding position. A kid from Team A "dislodges" (Refs love using this word) the kid from Team B to the point of where Team A player is where Team B player was. If it is flagrant the whistle gets blown and a foul is called. If not I let the play go. If a basket is made or the ball bounces clear the other way - no foul is called but I make sure the Team A player knows I saw what he did since what happened had no impact or advantage gained on it.
Where things get dicey is when Team A dislodges Team B and 3 seconds later the ball lands right where the Team B player was but now the Team A player is there. NOW the whistle gets blown and a foul is called. Where it gets dicey is most people were looking at the ball and no one (or almost no one) saw the push 3 seconds earlier and wonder how I could call a foul when they didn't see anything bad happen. The Team A player knows what he did so he says nothing and the telling the coach usually calm things down but in this case the call or no call is determined by the play and what did/didn't happen.
I will end this by saying: If officials called everything - you would hate the game. One day I did a 3rd/4th grade Girls game. Yes - it was as brutal as it sounds but the pay was nice and it wasn't much work. As you can imagine you let A LOT go. Parents/Coaches not only understand they want it that way. But this one day at halftime we get some mother come to us and say we are doing a terrible job. We are letting a lot go and we need to call what we see. We ask her: Do you want us to call everything we see? She says: YES! OK lady - you got it. So 3Q starts and we call everything. In this league players have to play defense inside their own 3 point circle until the ball crosses half court so if someone travels or double dribbles we let it go. Not now. We call everything. The coaches and parents are wondering WTF is going on. What are we doing? We then point to this one woman and make sure everyone in the gym knows she said we needed to call everything so we were. EVERYONE in the gym looks at her and gives her an "evil eye." She is furious and leaves the gym. As soon as she does we go back to calling things the way we should and everyone is happy.
I will be by a coach while the play is in front of them. Every so often I will hear something like, "You missed a travel on (the other team)." Yes - I did. And I let the coach know that. I will say to them, "You mean the one caused by your player holding him?" meaning I know the kid walked but I let it go because it was caused by your kid fouling him. Now - you were saying? We also know who we have whistled for a few fouls early on. If I know the big guy has 2 fouls on him and he is spending the game banging down low with the other big guy if that big guy does something to commit his 3rd foul in 1h and I can "Pass it off" on someone else - I will. I will call it on the PG figuring he is less of a danger to foul out than the big guy. I did this once. I called the foul on the PG who insisted he never touched him. So we go to shoot FTs and the PG is right next to me. I tell him I know you didn't foul him - your big guy did but if I call it on the big guy that is #3 (out of 5) on him so I passed it off on you. The PG profusely thanked me for it after he knew what I did. Having said that if the big guy is a dunderhead and keeps fouling we figure the kid is too stupid to play in the game and we call them and get him out of the game.
So a lot goes into blowing the whistle. I know Rail rips refs - and he is more right than wrong. But I also know Rail wouldn't last 1Q of a high level BJV or Varsity game. Just know reffing in any sport is not as easy as it looks. But that "foul" on the 3-pter was brutal.
JK - did the refs do the right thing here in swallowing their whistle on this play? HS/CBB rules (and this was played under mostly CBB rules - and this was one of them) state: IF an offensive player CLEARLY runs out of bounds to try and evade a defender that is a violation. Ref bows their whistle and ball goes to the other team. Watch at around 5 seconds the Eagles guy CLEARLY runs OOB, emerges on the sideline inbounds and receives the ball. THAT IS A VIOLATION - AS EASY A CALL AS ANY REF WILL EVER HAVE! Ref did NOT blow the whistle. Play gets passed around for the $1M winning trey. You wanna tell us the right call was made - or not made - here? How would you feel if you were on the other team? Now Eagles might still win it but not on this shot. I ripped TBT on IG/Twitter for it and I am 100% right!
Judgement calls in the NBA are tough.
The athletes are so big and fast.
So easy when you're calling the game from the couch.
Of course, consistency is the key.
I believe players want the refs to set the tone early and then disappear late.
Nobody, including the officials, wants a controversial whistle to decide a game.
Not good for the sport, in general.
I believe NHL officials put their whistles away late in the third period and overtime, only calling infractions that are obvious to all.
I endorse that general philosophy.
The athletes are so big and fast.
So easy when you're calling the game from the couch.
Of course, consistency is the key.
I believe players want the refs to set the tone early and then disappear late.
Nobody, including the officials, wants a controversial whistle to decide a game.
Not good for the sport, in general.
I believe NHL officials put their whistles away late in the third period and overtime, only calling infractions that are obvious to all.
I endorse that general philosophy.
Nothing worse than a make-up call.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
winkyduck
TYVM Morgan William!!!
As we like to say: 2 wrongs don't make but 2 "rights" make an airplane
winkyduck
TYVM Morgan William!!!
I would agree in older days. It used to be unless you took your stick and shoved the blade end down someone's throat or up their ass you didn't get a penalty. But that has changed now. Refs blow the whistle more often and not just for "felonies"
The part about: So easy when you're calling the game from the couch................YES! Because on the couch you get the high angle - something we don't get on the court. That is also why when we are down low we NEVER look up at the basket. Our job is solely on those in the key. The show goes up - my eyes stay focused on the players., If you ever see a ref on the baseline look up at the basket when a shot goes up that ref is new because veteran refs never do. I couldn't even begin to count the number of times during a game of mine the ref under the basket will call a foul and has no idea if the ball went in or not. If there is ever any doubt the Lead will look at the Trail (ref up top) and ask for help and the Trail better let the Lead know. There have also been times when I am down low and the ball goes out of bounds and I have no idea whose ball it should be. I look at my partner and hope for the best. If I see a 3-pter tried from the top of the key out of the corner of my eye and I see it be an airball and land out of bounds I will raise my hand (with a palm and not a fist) and before I motion a direction I will look at my partner to see if the shot was an airball or deflected. If the latter he/she will rub a hand over their palm to indicate the ball was deflected. If I don't see that the ball is going the other way and then if it was deflected they will let me know.
Consistency is the key and letting the players dictate the pace is something all officials should do. But if I do 40-50 games in a season I know at least 1 will turn into a "football" game where the teams just wanna pound the crap out of each other for 32 minutes. There is nothing we can do about it. We get in Bonus (7 fouls) in 1Q and we know it will be a long game. But we know we have to call everything or a fight will start. We hear the crowd upset and screaming "Let them play" - to which I think to myself "We tried" but the players chose not to do so. For the record: I have NEVER fouled a player out of a game. EVER! They fouled themselves out of the game by their actions. Notice how no one else got fouled out - only you, son - by your actions.
Thanks for sharing, Wink.
Patrick McIrish
OCCams raZOR
Consistency. I think most players would settle for this no matter the sport.
winkyduck
TYVM Morgan William!!!
Any time
The HS season has been pushed back to around Feb/March here in SoCal. I am ecstatic about that because I doubt I could have been able to do it had we started up soon - like normal. I am still doubtful we will have a season but if we do pushing it back helps me. I still walk with a limp and my insurance company has "bent me over" on that matter. The last games I reffed were on Oct 27, 2018. I want to get back on the court because it will be one more way of trying to get back to normal - or as normal as it will ever get for me. RIGHT NOW - I don't see myself being able to ref in Feb/March but that is 6 months away and that is a long time to hopefully get something done although the doctor told me I might never be able to strenuously exercise again since the Cancer ate away part of the bone in my right leg and that will never grow back. Sucks but knowing what the alternative is you will never hear a complaint from me if I never ref another HS game and I can only do the Nike 3-on-3 in August.......and if I can't do that and am 100%done - it will suck but once again - you will never hear me complain.
Wink's a survivor and a warrior.
One and the same, I assume.
One and the same, I assume.
Viejo Dinosaur
EOG Master
Good insight Winky.....
boston massacre
EOG Master
choslamshe
EOG Master
The one thing I thought on Dragic's questionable foul was that despite being straight up, it didn't look like Middleton had the chance to come down on his own two feet without landing on Dragic's feet. He was literally standing below him. I was actually watching without sound so couldn't hear their assessment, but it was what I felt constituted the foul.
Giannis' was tough as I agree it didn't obstruct the actual shot, but by definition was a foul too.
With Giannis, I also question his brain capacity alot of the time. He is prone to picking up dumb fouls and true to form - why even put yourself in that spot? Especially as the second help defender? Just dumb on his part.
That said, Bucks are so outclassed thus far and didn't deserve to even have that shot.
Boston/Miami looking like a potentially great, grinding, low scoring series.
Giannis' was tough as I agree it didn't obstruct the actual shot, but by definition was a foul too.
With Giannis, I also question his brain capacity alot of the time. He is prone to picking up dumb fouls and true to form - why even put yourself in that spot? Especially as the second help defender? Just dumb on his part.
That said, Bucks are so outclassed thus far and didn't deserve to even have that shot.
Boston/Miami looking like a potentially great, grinding, low scoring series.
IWishIWasAPro
EOG Master
Joke ending Bucks Heat.
winkyduck
TYVM Morgan William!!!
Fair point but go back and watch the play and see the ref motion that Dragic was not vertical but reached out to him. Which he did not. Also Middleton jumps into Dragic not the other way around. A bad call - no other way to put it
winkyduck
TYVM Morgan William!!!
Fair question. One might even argue if the game is in Milwaukee odds are the Bucks are up enough at the end that there is no need for the heat to try a 3.
As for me - I call what I see - regardless of where I am at. As I detailed above I have made calls against the home side in the dying seconds that infuriated most people there. I don't care. I saw something - I called it. I had a game also at San Clemente. Home team losing by 2 in the dying seconds. I am the ref up top. Kid drives the lane and gets hit. I blew my whistle but did not call a foul. Instead I very clearly saw the kid trap the ball against the side of his body and take 3-4 steps BEFORE he got hit. I called him for a Travel. The place - and coach - went nuts. I managed to get a copy of the game and asked my "higher ups" to let me know what they thought of the call. All 4 of them told me I made the right call. So any Ref who lets the home crowd influence their call shouldn't be reffing
kane
EOG master
The Dragic foul was a joke, all he did was stand straight up with his arms over his head, he didn't move his feet at all, he didn't even jump, all he did was stand there with his arms over his head, he never moved from that spot, just a terrible call. The Giannis call was a bad way to end a game, but technically the call was correct, you can't put your hand on a shooter while he's still in the air, that's exactly what happened, granted it didn't appear as though the contact disrupted Jimmy's shot since he was on his way down, but the bottom line is you can't put your hand on a shooter while he's still in the air, Giannis clearly put his hand on Jimmy's waist. Legler also agree with me, he said the Dragic call was bad and the Giannis call, while unfortunate, was the correct call
WildBill
2
The Dragic call was one you see way too often in the NBA with stars. Harden loves to do that shit, jump into a defender that is standing still and yet he gets that call way too often. CP3 used to do that a lot too. Countless times they call that and show the replay and all you can say is what exactly was the defender supposed to do there? I mean literally the ref is going to call that no matter what the defender does, about all he could do in the eyes of the ref is stand about 5 feet back and give the guy an uncontested shot.
winkyduck
TYVM Morgan William!!!
How about players shooting a shot and kick out their leg. They get it hit. FOUL! On the defender. Thankfully the NBA is doing a somewhat better job of looking out for that.
I will mention what might be my #1 gripe about HS kids. So Player from Team A takes a shot. Player from Team B is guarding him. As A lets go of the ball B taps him on the stomach. We have all seen it before. NOT IN MY BOOK! I call a foul on B. I will frequently call an "Intentional Foul" meaning 2 FT and the ball back. Team B couch will go nuts but I tell them his player did not make a play on the ball and did it on purpose. Coach B is not happy. Not that I care
Don Quixote
EOG Enthusiast
Surly ref'n in the nba is a tough gig, but with millions upon millions of money in advertising & marketing riding on calls, you better know that these ref's absolutely know what will make their bosses richer.
Really old news here. Everything in our society right now says that if you can't get caught with proof of cheating for more, and more, and more, and more money, especially white collar stuff, that company will do it...and are doing it.
Sometimes it just doesn't work out like the refs and owners want it to work out, cause they can't afford to be too obvious. But sometimes it's soo obvious.
Being inconsistent makes it way,way easier to manipulate the outcome.
Watching a nba game is like: foul {not called}, foul {not called}, hard foul {not called}, foul {not called}, star going to the hoop barely touched, called. Or variations.
WHEN refs call a foul is extremely important in BB. Foul while shooting is like a huge way for a team to get ahead, so refs wait till someone is shooting sometimes.
Refs are very artful in making the finale box score look a certain way. Football too big time.
If you have integrity and want the play on the court to determine the outcome, you will be consistent with your playcalling.
NBA does have integrity...Their Jedi~mind tricks only work on the weak~minded.
Bet accordingly.
Really old news here. Everything in our society right now says that if you can't get caught with proof of cheating for more, and more, and more, and more money, especially white collar stuff, that company will do it...and are doing it.
Sometimes it just doesn't work out like the refs and owners want it to work out, cause they can't afford to be too obvious. But sometimes it's soo obvious.
Being inconsistent makes it way,way easier to manipulate the outcome.
Watching a nba game is like: foul {not called}, foul {not called}, hard foul {not called}, foul {not called}, star going to the hoop barely touched, called. Or variations.
WHEN refs call a foul is extremely important in BB. Foul while shooting is like a huge way for a team to get ahead, so refs wait till someone is shooting sometimes.
Refs are very artful in making the finale box score look a certain way. Football too big time.
If you have integrity and want the play on the court to determine the outcome, you will be consistent with your playcalling.
NBA does have integrity...Their Jedi~mind tricks only work on the weak~minded.
Bet accordingly.
WildBill
2
This is true of every sport. Baseball maybe has the least impact, but man there have been terrible umps over the years that thankfully now can have their calls overturned. But football is insane, you literally could throw a flag on every play. Defender not supposed to even touch a guy five yards downfield on a pass play, how often do they not touch them? O-line supposed to basically push defenders around, but can't hold or impede them with their arms, yet what happens every play? Point being there are rules in a rule book but as Winky pointed out earlier if there was no discretion given to refs then team sports would be so lacking in entertainment value for the fans.
kane
EOG master
Reggie Miller made a career out of doing just that, used to drive me crazy, thankfully the league eventually started calling it an offensive foul
winkyduck
TYVM Morgan William!!!
I am a lonnnng tim diehard Lakers fan but Kobe was also very good at throwing out his arms, creating contact that would not have happened without it - and getting the call
Heim
EOG Master
I could live with the Giannis foul if the white ref who had a better view called it from the baseline,
he didn't.....it was the black ref who was looking at the back of a flying Giannis who called it and
really could not see exactly were the contact was if any. IMO unless there's a autopsy with 4 seconds
left you don't dismiss what happened the previous 47.56 minutes.
he didn't.....it was the black ref who was looking at the back of a flying Giannis who called it and
really could not see exactly were the contact was if any. IMO unless there's a autopsy with 4 seconds
left you don't dismiss what happened the previous 47.56 minutes.