South Point claims the right to void all MLB RSW bets

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ComptrBob

EOG Master
I had an interesting Twitter dialog with Chris Andrews who announced that South Point was voiding (refunding) all MLB RSW bets.

I asked what rule South Point used in claiming this right. Chris responded with the rather terse and cryptic "The rule says ‘once the season starts.’ The season hasn’t started." Seems they claim the right to void any RSW bet before the season starts. Wow!

Perhaps would be an interesting challenge to take to the Nevada Gaming Commission if I had bet a MLB RSW at South Point.
 
C

ComptrBob

EOG Master
John Kelly said:
Feels like they should wait to see how things play out.

What's the rush?
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Right, no rush. Or offer a refund if someone requested it.

I have responded to Chris: Declaring it "ACTION when the season starts" is NOT the same as "ACTION only if the season starts on time, and bets can be voided any time before the season starts". Implies a book would also have the right to just void accepted bets that got a good RSW line?
 
raycabino

raycabino

Long Live Wilson!
Yeah feels easiest thing there is refund on demand. Other than that wait til you know for sure that they won't meet the criteria of games needed.
 
Sportsrmylife

Sportsrmylife

EOG Master
what if the mlb season gets the full 162 games in? double headers galore to jam in the season.

not likey i know.

but I thought season win totals always had the find print of "must play xxx number of games for action."

apparently that isn't the case.
 
C

ComptrBob

EOG Master
Chris: This is a once in a lifetime event and I made a once in a lifetime decision. It was the only fair and just decision that could be made. Period.

Me: Its disturbing when a bookmaker voids a bet (whether I made it at his book or not) with no clear rule and in obvious conflict with "Tickets go as written". Period.
 
C

ComptrBob

EOG Master
Sportsrmylife said:
what if the mlb season gets the full 162 games in? double headers galore to jam in the season.

not likey i know.

but I thought season win totals always had the find print of "must play xxx number of games for action."

apparently that isn't the case.
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This was discussed on VSin last night with bookmaker Vinnie Magluilo who said MLB has different rules because of lots of games (162).

Apparently Southpoint doesn't require a certain number of games be played. I've seen some books require only at least 160 (or 161) be played.
 
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MrTop

EOG Master
they either have to accept the wager or not for everyone. If the sports book picked the bets they wanted the sports book could get caught very easily.. Legal books mostly vegas where a lot of people know each other that bet win totals the issue would cross. . PPH could cheat much easier ( with no regulation ) accepting wagers or not with favorable lines. Gaming should get a call from the bettors.. Nothing to lose for the bettor.
 
C

ComptrBob

EOG Master
MrTop said:
they either have to accept the wager or not for everyone. If the sports book picked the bets they wanted the sports book could get caught very easily.. Legal books mostly vegas where a lot of people know each other that bet win totals the issue would cross. . PPH could cheat much easier ( with no regulation ) accepting wagers or not with favorable lines. Gaming should get a call from the bettors.. Nothing to lose for the bettor.
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Of course, this is nonsense.

Nevada books can limit action on any bettor at their discretion, they just have to pay a price in public relations. Many of my in-progress bets are selectively declined and the line is made unavailable or changed. I have had to void tickets at the window because of wrong team and wrong line, but never had a bet voided before a season started just "because the bookie made a decision not based on any rule".

This issue is about Nevada and the SouthPoint, it isn't about any other states, PPHs or offshores. Hopefully the SP isn't followed by WillHill and the Peppermill where I do have RSW bets.
 
M

MrTop

EOG Master
All the new jersey books sent out letters about season bets...saying they will let everyone know what they were going to do. Probably in new jersey they will all do the same. I would expect the other Nevada books to follow South point if they were first and if all the rules were the same before any bets placed.
 
M

MrTop

EOG Master
I can't take the rules at books anymore.. It gets worse and worse every year. I was limited on extra game football $287


sad
 
raycabino

raycabino

Long Live Wilson!
MrTop said:
I can't take the rules at books anymore.. It gets worse and worse every year. I was limited on extra game football $287


sad
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Wait til you see the new baseball rules this year lmao. Well if we have a season that is. Long story short is listed pitchers will be a thing of the past.
 
M

MrTop

EOG Master
raycabino said:
Wait til you see the new baseball rules this year lmao. Well if we have a season that is. Long story short is listed pitchers will be a thing of the past.
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ray don't follow the british.. draftkings does that..remember they lost the war to the US. the bettors will bring back 1776


: )
 
C

ComptrBob

EOG Master
raycabino said:
Wait til you see the new baseball rules this year lmao. Well if we have a season that is. Long story short is listed pitchers will be a thing of the past.
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Of course, the reason for listed pitchers was that the starting pitchers were at least 40-50% of the value of the handicap. All it does is guarantee that just the first pitch for the team is thrown by the listed pitcher(s). Question I have is will Totals, first 5 and RLs also be ACTION only (i.e. no listed pitchers)?
 
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raycabino

raycabino

Long Live Wilson!
ComptrBob said:
Of course, the reason for listed pitchers was that the starting pitchers were at least 40-50% of the value of the handicap. All it does is guarantee that just the first pitch for the team is thrown by the listed pitcher(s). Question I have is will Totals,1H and RLs also be ACTION only (i.e. no listed pitchers)?
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I think so Bob but not 100% yet.
 
Sportsrmylife

Sportsrmylife

EOG Master
ComptrBob said:
This was discussed on VSin last night with bookmaker Vinnie Magluilo who said MLB has different rules because of lots of games (162).

Apparently Southpoint doesn't require a certain number of games be played. I've seen some books require only at least 160 (or 161) be played.
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I call bullshit.

Lets say the season was played with 130 games and this virus cancelled the rest of the season.

You telling me they would pay out all the under rsw bets?

Fk no.

That doesnt sound legal to not have a minimum number of games played for it to be a legal bet especially in vegas.
 
C

cheapseats

EOG Master
What happens if MLB gets underway and then C19 returns with a vengeance requiring another shutdown. I side with the book.
 
C

ComptrBob

EOG Master
Sportsrmylife said:
I call bullshit.

Lets say the season was played with 130 games and this virus cancelled the rest of the season.

You telling me they would pay out all the under rsw bets?

Fk no.

That doesnt sound legal to not have a minimum number of games played for it to be a legal bet especially in vegas.
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Just checked the SP website, I'll research the actual rules (update: I can find no rules for the sportsbook online), but quote from Chris Andrews: It was action no matter how many games were played ONCE THE SEASON STARTED
 
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C

ComptrBob

EOG Master
cheapseats said:
What happens if MLB gets underway and then C19 returns with a vengeance requiring another shutdown. I side with the book.
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Just because something may happen to shorten the season, doesn't mean the book can void tickets, something illegal by NGC rules. The SP chose not to specify a minimum number of games to be played, so its their responsibility to pay off their wagers.
 
C

ComptrBob

EOG Master
It would be funny if SP had the same rule for MLB RSW next year.

Scenario at window:

Me: xxxx UNDER 85 wins for $110. (Ticket prints out)

Me (taking ticket): "Do I have ACTION?".

Writer: No, you have to wait until the season starts. Until then, if we decide, we can void your ticket.
 
C

ComptrBob

EOG Master
SP would have to defend its decision, but only if one or more bettor submits a complaint of the voiding to the NGC. The NGCB will simply rule if these bets have to be honored based on their interpretation of the SP rules and Nevada Gaming Regulations. Personally, I would say SP would have to honor the bets.

Normally RSW bets are settled when the season ends or, in the rare case, is cancelled. Its somewhat unclear if these bets are voided, do you have to claim your refund within the normal time window for a bet? Theoretically you would have until Sept 27, 2020 (+ 90/180 days or whatever the SP limit is) to get a refund.
 
OLDSANDBAGGER

OLDSANDBAGGER

EOG Senior Member
Just my humble opinion but I think Michael Gaughan, owner of the South Point, is among the fairest and most respected hotel/casino/sportsbook operators in Vegas. Maybe the most. And Chris Andrews is a fair minded gentleman and not out to cheat the customers. We are in uncharted territory with what has happened this week. There are no rules that specifically apply. Evaluations of the teams and win totals will change based upon how many players succumb to the virus on each team and how seriously. Plus other factors. For example, this will help Judge on the Yankees heal and maybe not miss games to start the season. The Yankee players are still working out together while St. Louis players were locked out is another example.

All in all I think the best course of action is to refund all bets as circumstances have changed too much and put up new numbers once we get to the point of a new schedule and evaluate the impact to each team in the interim. Plus they won’t be holding your money. Just my view.
 
C

ComptrBob

EOG Master
OLDSANDBAGGER said:
Just my humble opinion but I think Michael Gaughan, owner of the South Point, is among the fairest and most respected hotel/casino/sportsbook operators in Vegas. Maybe the most. And Chris Andrews is a fair minded gentleman and not out to cheat the customers. We are in uncharted territory with what has happened this week. There are no rules that specifically apply. Evaluations of the teams and win totals will change based upon how many players succumb to the virus on each team and how seriously. Plus other factors. For example, this will help Judge on the Yankees heal and maybe not miss games to start the season. The Yankee players are still working out together while St. Louis players were locked out is another example.

All in all I think the best course of action is to refund all bets as circumstances have changed too much and put up new numbers once we get to the point of a new schedule and evaluate the impact to each team in the interim. Plus they won’t be holding your money. Just my view.
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First, I don't accuse Chris of trying to cheat the customers. I think it is obvious that the most fair to the customer is for the decision to be made by individual bettor (refund or let stand). There is no rule that allows the SP to void these bets. I simply think the decision to void is bad.

RSW totals are always influenced by a multitude of factors, injuries and the virus, etc. but this puts the SP in a very embarrassing position because they didn't specify a minimum # of games that had to be played. Now you have UNDER bettors who have a large, clear advantage because it is likely a significant # of games will be lost and the CBA would have to be reworked to have enough doubleheaders to get close to 162 games played by say early October.

There are no rules that specifically apply. Yes, there is, the operative rule is "Tickets go as written".
 
M

MrTop

EOG Master
MLB could move the schedule forward like they did with 9/11 ... but if it goes to deep into the season then it is chop chop the season.. SP was probably looking at a double stop of the season.. OK all unders win.. so SP nobody played the Over? SP playing both sides if they do not honor. South point do us a favor open the books and let's see where the money is at on the unders
 
railbird

railbird

EOG Master
I don't think Vaccaro would have made a rash decision like that. Also unlikely they play 160 so mute, but if they do bets good. Its an overreach
 
I

IWishIWasAPro

EOG Master
I really thought there was a minimum number of games played at most books. I get your view CompterBob but also the opposing side as well.

Im pretty sure baseball season will not start any time soon so we all lose. 2 weeks my ass, its not starting until May I bet.
 
OLDSANDBAGGER

OLDSANDBAGGER

EOG Senior Member
I believe the standard is 160 games for RSW totals everywhere. No way they reach that. Memorial Day weekend a possible restart date. I have some RSW wins bets offshore and fully expect them to be cancelled.
 
V

Valuist

EOG Master
A mistake by Andrews to play God. Yes, its highly unlikely we will have a 162 game season, but you have to wait. If I have a NFL season win total bet with the South Point that cannot lose with 4 games still to play, will they cash my ticket? Nope, I have to wait.
 
H

High Times

EOG Master
Sports books run by wantabee bookmakers in Las Vegas without being regulated in 2020 is unacceptable..........
Letting them make decisions like this on their own.... Shocking
 
C

ComptrBob

EOG Master
MrTop said:
CB did you get you 💰 back ?
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This year I didn't bet MLB RSW at SP, I bet RSW at WH, Peppermill, and an offshore with different rules.

I'm in the Reno/Tahoe area, typically bet at 6 or 7 casinos and offshores, rarely bet (only when in Vegas) at the SP. I don't like Nevada books that arbitrarily void tickets using tenuous logic (being kind), it establishes a bad precedent.
 
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