Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

High Times

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

So the Casinos are allowed to be professionals, but the Bettors must stay recreational or get labeled a cheat/beard/runner/steam chaser/bad line bettor and on and on......

I see
 

pvcpipe

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Christ HT you are retarded as FUCK.


What don't you understand about bookmaking being a market driven product?


By your logic, if Berkshire sells 10k shares of a stock tomorrow morning, then i want to unload the same amount for the same price AFTER they do, it's unprofessional for the NYSE to refuse my request (even though the price has fallen 10%).
 

mirageburbank

EOG Member
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

High times -- No. Not at all. I just wanted to know who the pros were. This is the basis for my bookmaking philosophy. Booking to faces where they bet the limits, or something short of that.

The question is how to deal with three bets from pros, or two, at the same number at the same time.

There was a consensus among the pros that it would be first come, first served. It didn't work out if you were second.

I don't believe our positions are even remotely the same. You are trying to take our money and we are trying to use you to get to a better number.

We can't accomplish our goal if we let you manipulate our number. Would we be more profitable if we did not have any professional bettors. Yes.

But then we would have to repeat the process of identifying the good players or line originators or whatever you want.

I know there were many, many legitimate professional bettors who were also above board. We would have guys make a limit bet and then tell us about an injury. I never got upset with that wager.

However, for every stand up bettor, there were many more who would get to our casino high rollers in an attempt to get higher limits.

There were bettors who asked if they could get exclusive access to the openers, or cut in line whenever they needed to make a wager.

Now why would we do that if we were not on the take. We wouldn't.

I think High Times that your job was tough. I think my job was to make it tougher. And that is where we will forever disagree.

I do ask you to put your bookmakers hat on. If your limits were 5k a game, you would not allow three guys to hit you at once on the same number. Why should the nevada books be any different.
 

High Times

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

High times -- No. Not at all. I just wanted to know who the pros were. This is the basis for my bookmaking philosophy. Booking to faces where they bet the limits, or something short of that.

The question is how to deal with three bets from pros, or two, at the same number at the same time.

There was a consensus among the pros that it would be first come, first served. It didn't work out if you were second.

I don't believe our positions are even remotely the same. You are trying to take our money and we are trying to use you to get to a better number.

We can't accomplish our goal if we let you manipulate our number. Would we be more profitable if we did not have any professional bettors. Yes.

But then we would have to repeat the process of identifying the good players or line originators or whatever you want.

I know there were many, many legitimate professional bettors who were also above board. We would have guys make a limit bet and then tell us about an injury. I never got upset with that wager.

However, for every stand up bettor, there were many more who would get to our casino high rollers in an attempt to get higher limits.

There were bettors who asked if they could get exclusive access to the openers, or cut in line whenever they needed to make a wager.

Now why would we do that if we were not on the take. We wouldn't.

I think High Times that your job was tough. I think my job was to make it tougher. And that is where we will forever disagree.

I do ask you to put your bookmakers hat on. If your limits were 5k a game, you would not allow three guys to hit you at once on the same number. Why should the nevada books be any different.

I have run a major book and there's nothing I hated more then the guys who would try to beat in a move. But we knew who the "steam chasers" were and would hold them up if they wanted a limit bet. It was easier with an off-shore book to do that.

My problem again was the fact that your manager at say the Golden Nugget would call in the bet and give us the ticket and then 2 minutes later they would come running demanding the ticket back.

You have every right to turn down a bet (I guess) but taking the bet and money and then wanting it back is going a little too far.

I like you and understand you are/were protecting the Casino and your book.

I am getting nowhere .... but it's cool.
 

High Times

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Christ HT you are retarded as FUCK.


What don't you understand about bookmaking being a market driven product?


By your logic, if Berkshire sells 10k shares of a stock tomorrow morning, then i want to unload the same amount for the same price AFTER they do, it's unprofessional for the NYSE to refuse my request (even though the price has fallen 10%).

This has nothing to do with you

:btj:
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

I posted something about 5 years ago about what I saw this guy do at the Stardust back in 93 or 94. Some guy had a pile of birdcaged parlay tickets (tickets he had 1 2 or 3 teams all on multiple tickets) and this guy was there telling him it couldnt be done, after they ticket writer had punched out about 40 of them. They werent correlated, they werent on games with 'key' numbers, they werent on steamed teams, they werent with differing lines (although he uses that excuse to his favor here.). basically the guy liked 3 teams and key wheeled them to the board basically. So basically as 'square' as you could get in most people's eyes, but this guy was trying to cancel them all. I think the guy had even paid for a stack of them.

This was before I had really gotten into all of it (right before I went in) but I still moved a little money around. But the 'legendary' Stardust was a joke. As it is today the down town places were much better. But I got shut down there more than a few times.

When I got out in 97 Stardust was a lot different, and looked to be working to get back its 'legendary' status. Getting blown up sort of stopped its come back though.

But these guys who run/ran books who come into the forums and try to peddle their philosophy are really transparent. But it is ironic that this guy is crucified but the Pinnacle guys or even that douchebag from BoDog were treated like Gods among men. Theyre all the same if you ask me.

Maybe more people have a personal connection with this guy than the guys from the offshore, who knows. But a blast from the past.
 

Discreet Cat

EOG Dedicated
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

I'm guessing that one of the world's largest bond traders probably knows a little more about risk management than Robert Walker does. Just a hunch.

That being said, is anyone else surprised by the sudden and vast expansion of these new Cantor sportsbooks, considering the amount of money they're pouring into them up-front? I can understand why the casinos would let them do it (zero risk, fewer employees and associated benefits to pay for, etc.), but is Cantor over-estimating how lucrative the sportsbook business is? I mean, the casinos can't seem to get rid of them fast enough, or so it would seem. Not that the majority of them are necessarily being run in the proper way, but still...

Whatever the eventual result, it'll be interesting to see it play out over the next decade or so.
 

mirageburbank

EOG Member
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

High Times you are simply overstating what transpired. If the manager at the golden nugget called it in and got it approved it was simply a done deal.

You stated that the manager called it in, gave you the ticket and then demanded it back. That was simply not the process. Of course you are really going back in time because the bets were transparent for us in about 1999 or so. (give or take a year or so).

The process was simply who ever got the bet first, kept the bet at that number. We were not 12 different books, but really an extension of one book.

And wantitall4moi we would not let someone key wheel three games with the board. That was well beyond our risk extension back then. Even if the numbers were legit.

In my career, however, I have seldom seen people come in with stacks of parlay cards where they were not taking the best of it.

I'm not saying it never happened. But it was rare.
 

High Times

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

High Times you are simply overstating what transpired. If the manager at the golden nugget called it in and got it approved it was simply a done deal.

You stated that the manager called it in, gave you the ticket and then demanded it back. That was simply not the process. Of course you are really going back in time because the bets were transparent for us in about 1999 or so. (give or take a year or so).

The process was simply who ever got the bet first, kept the bet at that number. We were not 12 different books, but really an extension of one book.

And wantitall4moi we would not let someone key wheel three games with the board. That was well beyond our risk extension back then. Even if the numbers were legit.

In my career, however, I have seldom seen people come in with stacks of parlay cards where they were not taking the best of it.

I'm not saying it never happened. But it was rare.

So your saying that your managers didn't have to call in limit bets from known sharps?

And you guys never asked for them back?

no big deal

You know what was going on
 

High Times

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

I'm guessing that one of the world's largest bond traders probably knows a little more about risk management than Robert Walker does. Just a hunch.

That being said, is anyone else surprised by the sudden and vast expansion of these new Cantor sportsbooks, considering the amount of money they're pouring into them up-front? I can understand why the casinos would let them do it (zero risk, fewer employees and associated benefits to pay for, etc.), but is Cantor over-estimating how lucrative the sportsbook business is? I mean, the casinos can't seem to get rid of them fast enough, or so it would seem. Not that the majority of them are necessarily being run in the proper way, but still...

Whatever the eventual result, it'll be interesting to see it play out over the next decade or so.

It has a lot to do with the trust factor.

Even a place like the Hard Rock really only needs a couple of clerks and 2 or 3 managers at the most. I mean anybody can sit and copy the lines and take bets and make the Casino a lot of money.

But

They don't trust anybody enough to do that simple little job and it is a simple little job. These Casinos don't trust anybody and have way, way too many people involved in something that really doesn't take that many people to do.

Plus with the shit that was going on with these Las Vegas sports books (and the thieving managers) there's very few higher ups that trust anybody any more.

That is about the size of it.

The amount of money these places are throwing away because they think they need 30 clerks and 10 managers is stupid.

The Casinos simply don't trust anyone.

Robert Walker knows exactly what I am talking about because the only reason he got hired at the Stardust was because they trusted him after what was going on before he got there.

Right RW?
 

mirageburbank

EOG Member
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

High times that is not what I said.

You inferred that the Golden Nugget called in the bet, got it approved, gave you the ticket and we asked for it back minutes later.

I said that is not how we did it.

I never said that the manger did not have to call it in, but once he did and if that was the first bet you would've got your ticket and nobody would've came after you.

You know what the procedure was High Times, you know. And it was a fair system for all of the pro players.

I guess I am having a problem understanding why you are having a problem understanding that whoever got the bet first -- got the bet.

We were not stealing from anyone.
 

Mammon

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Question, If I am some newbie there, how muck flack will the M give me if I am on the same syndicate play for the limit? Assuming this only happens 20% of the time.
 

High Times

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

High times that is not what I said.

You inferred that the Golden Nugget called in the bet, got it approved, gave you the ticket and we asked for it back minutes later.

I said that is not how we did it.

I never said that the manger did not have to call it in, but once he did and if that was the first bet you would've got your ticket and nobody would've came after you.

You know what the procedure was High Times, you know. And it was a fair system for all of the pro players.

I guess I am having a problem understanding why you are having a problem understanding that whoever got the bet first -- got the bet.

We were not stealing from anyone.

Never said you were stealing.

Just said I didn't like the way you guys would run after people to get those tickets back.

And if you didn't know that was happening then I'm sorry, but it happened and it happened to a bunch of Bettors. More then once.

Good day
 

Viejo Dinosaur

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

What about the ticket writer from the Stardust who walked away with a ton of cash, never to be seen again?

Whatever happened to him?
 

Viejo Dinosaur

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

I also got the heave ho for betting golf and golf matchups at the MGM during the early nineties...I went 8-9 for nickle and dime bets...but this time I was politely asked not to come back...I was bearding for a guy who worked at GRANDE who used to have a tour card....think he still works there...
 

High Times

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

What about the ticket writer from the Stardust who walked away with a ton of cash, never to be seen again?

Whatever happened to him?

That happened when Scotty was around.

Nobody ever heard from him again did they?
 

mirageburbank

EOG Member
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

First let me apologize to High Times. He did not say that I stole from customers, it was another poster. I'm sorry.

Second Viejo, the cashier who stole the money (around a half a million) from the Stardust has never been seen or heard from. My guess is he is buried somewhere, but I don't think we will ever know.

Fortunately, I did not run the MGM during the time you are referring to. I don't doubt though I would've cut you back as well.

And finally Mammon, while this question may not be for me, if it is I would answer that the M or any other property would have no trouble with you laying the steam.

Once a person lays six for example and I move it to 6.5. It is open season at that number. The contention here is some of the bettors think that I should have let multiple bettors lay the six. I would never.

Most books don't care if you bet the steam, they just don't want to get double popped and most will take action to curb that.
 

mirageburbank

EOG Member
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Also High Times trust is a huge factor. Perhaps the biggest. Integrity comes into play each and every day. We have all moved numbers wrong at times, but what we don't want to have to do is question someones motives for doing so.

I was blessed (although I know some of you won't think so), but Joe Lupo, Bob Scucci, Jeff Stoneback and Jay Rood were fantastic to work with. . They worked a ton of hours, and were honest as the day is long. And Yolanda, and I think Jimmy V will attest to this is without a peer.
 

pokerjoe

EOG Senior Member
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

EOG >>> SBR Player's Talk now.
 

absolutvodka999

EOG Addicted
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

benefits to pay for, etc.), but is Cantor over-estimating how lucrative the sportsbook business is?
in nevada, sure. if they are paying that much just to corner the vegas market, they are retarded. but their endgame is being a major factor in national sports betting. getting your feet wet with the software, etc in the vegas market before the internet, mobile, and national betting markets take off is what they are paying for right now. nevada is miniscule on that radar
 

Mr. Smith

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

ahh thats one way of doing it, then there is a poster who ran a major chain of Las Vegas strip sportsbooks like a turtle crawled into a shell and was worried about old ladies playing parlay cards.
 

railbird

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Why the 20 cent baseball at the Mirage in the 2000's ?
 

Viejo Dinosaur

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

I hope that Mr. Walker accepts JK's invitation on the radio....
 

John Kelly

Born Gambler
Staff member
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

I'll reach out to Robert this weekend.

About the Stardust employee (Bill Brennan) who walked out the door with $500,000, I believe it was Robert's first week or first month on the job as the boss of the Stardust Race and Sports Book.
 

Heim

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Here's a guy that once cut hours of the high paying tellers based on tickets sold, reducing them to work 38 instead of 40 hours.....and now he's sensitive to players complaints as
an outsider.

Big LOL
 

texansfan

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Threads like this make for good reading.
 

Heim

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Miss the .5 (-150) MGM halftime lines....

Good times.
 

Discreet Cat

EOG Dedicated
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

in nevada, sure. if they are paying that much just to corner the vegas market, they are retarded. but their endgame is being a major factor in national sports betting. getting your feet wet with the software, etc in the vegas market before the internet, mobile, and national betting markets take off is what they are paying for right now. nevada is miniscule on that radar

Great point.

In fact, i read just read (in the RJ, i think) that Cantor is one of the current Nevada gaming licensees that already has an application on file with the gaming board pertaining to running an online poker site.

Nevada just approved online poker regulations last week, btw. And coincidentally, the very next day, the Department of Justice announced that they've altered their stance on the Wire Act, saying that it "only applies to sports betting".
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

They wont legalize anything they cant control and/or fix. Playing cards or casinos online is the dumbest thing anyone could ever think of doing. If it isnt filled with guys cheating with each other it has bots owned by the site that are programmed to win a certain percentage of hands. Anything that is 'computer generated' is not real life no matter what kind of bullshit they want to make up about RNGs or algorithms.

But since it is crooked and the govt can get a pay off on it they will do it, especially as desperate as they are to get money.

"Govt Regulated" sells. unfortunately it doesnt mean shit.
 

mirageburbank

EOG Member
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Brennan was on my watch (or lack of watch). It was shortly after I got to the Stardust.
He had vowed to get back at the company after he had been demoted from supervisor to cashier before I had arrived.

I would be surprised if he were still alive.

The 20 cent line in baseball was due simply to the fact that while modifying once again the ladder line (or progressive line) we, with input from upstairs, decided that we were done chasing the baseball business. It was not our market.

I'm still taking heat for that decision, but buying the business -- by offering reduced vig -- is not in our best interest. We don't do it for other sports, such as hockey, or golf, or nascar. And we didn't want to be saddled with decisions made 20 years ago when bookies went to a 15, 10 and even 5 cent line arbitrarily.

If, once again, the MGM MIRAGE only had a sports book and no other amenities, we would not have made that decision.

And finally reducing tellers hours. I'm not sure that was directed at me, but I have, in the past reduced hours across the board so I would not have to lay off anyone. Initially, this was my preferred way of handling employee layoffs (which I hated and was the absolute worse part of the job--except for you guys once in a while). I moved away from reducing hours eventually because it became clear for morale that it was better to chop one person then have 10 tellers pissed because you went from 40 to 36 hours.

Tickets written as a guide is very useful. The smokers back then tended to write substantially less tickets because they were on break a lot more. Of course the pretty girls always wrote more, so it was not a perfect measure.
 

railbird

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Why was it "upstairs" people didnt mind Jimmy Vaccaro using 10 cent lines? Are you sure it wasnt laziness on your part instead of upstairs? Vegas is better off that you are out of the game.
 

railbird

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Why no college basketball halftimes?
 

mirageburbank

EOG Member
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Railbird -- I'm sure that you are aware that there were many changes made after Jimmy left, not just in baseball.

I was at the MGM MIRAGE for 12 years, Jimmy for six I believe
 

railbird

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Why No US Open Tennis quarter Finals?

1990 Mirage was the best book in town by a wide margin, 2000 the worst book in town by a wide margin.
 

mirageburbank

EOG Member
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

I'm not sure about college basketball halftimes. I know that we booked the big games, but can't remember for certain.
And perhaps only on the weekend.

It wasn't until the mid 90s that we booked all of the NFL halftimes.
 

mirageburbank

EOG Member
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Tennis I don't remember either. It is possible we did not book quarterfinal action based on the number. But one of our biggest losses ever was in tennis, from a Australian high roller. Probably the semis though.

Railbird you were definitely not a bettor that we would cater to. But you are asking me questions that I don't recall, but obviously they were a concern for you.
 

High Times

EOG Master
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Tennis I don't remember either. It is possible we did not book quarterfinal action based on the number. But one of our biggest losses ever was in tennis, from a Australian high roller. Probably the semis though.

Railbird you were definitely not a bettor that we would cater to. But you are asking me questions that I don't recall, but obviously they were a concern for you.

Oh my

Cater to?

You are supposed to be a bookmaker. Putting up lines is how you make money. You are not catering to anybody you are booking their bets.

Or more like it you were avoiding bets.

Is that why you decided to freeze basketball totals and move the juice/vig?

To avoid bets?

You don't have to answer that I already know the answer.

And the problem with that is you chased away a lot of regular bettors who don't like basketball totals where you have to lay (-125 or -130)

That is just one of the many ways you COST your company money.

:btj:
 

mirageburbank

EOG Member
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

High Times I don't think you get it. I was not an illegal bookmaker. I was not an offshore bookmaker, whose sole income is derived from sports betting profits only.

Why is it difficult to understand that just as the pit does not cater to card counters, we don't cater to professional players. We allowed them to remain so as to utilize their expertise. No other reason.

We didn't need to. If you wanted to bet, fine. If you didn't, fine.

I would argue that the basketball totals were innovative but not entirely successful. We were still trying to figure out what the best way to use it. It was a work in progress for sure.

The simple fact is we never won on NBA totals. We would rarely win enough to cover the wagering tax. So something had to be done.

It's funny that you go to the ways I COST our company money yet praise others who I know never won close to the amount that we did. I know the bottom line figures. And they were not close.

That argument is your weakest because I know the facts. And we can discuss other issues, but you have to let that one go.
 
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