Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

#1
I have read all of the Cantor Gaming publicity as they seem to advertise everywhere and after a couple of years of disparaging statements, I think it is time the other side of their story is told.

Now many of you will not agree. That's okay.

I posted the link to my blog because it is so long.

Happy Holidays to all.

http://rwalkersports.com/?p=767
 
#2
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

So are you saying pinnacle is a big failure also?

Like to hear your view on them-
 

John Kelly

Born Gambler
Staff member
#3
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Great to have Robert Walker contributing to EOG.

Robert served as Director of Race and Sports Book Operations ('91-96) at the legendary Stardust Hotel and Casino following Scotty Schettler's time there.

Robert also followed Jimmy Vaccaro's term in the same position at the Mirage Hotel and Casino ('96-08).

Three words come to mind when I think of Robert Walker: talented, hard-working and trustworthy.

The "G" is headed in the right direction.
 
#4
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Thanks for the laugh. I don't think you are qualified to be a ticket writer at the M Resort.

That was 7th grade level stuff, maybe you are too used to trying to explain something to a tourist who wanders in and doesnt understand anything. Maybe you are just clueless. ( Ding). What in the world does opening something -3.5 then moving to -5 if that's what everyone else has instead of leaving it -3.5 -140 have to do with the Cantor model? Do you even understand Cantor?

Why in the world can you not see dealing -5 -110 is better than dealing -3.5 -140 +3.5 +120?
 
#5
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

That dude is an asshole.

I have no idea why I read that, but what a fucking douche.

Sounds like he was/is bitter because he couldn't book the way he wanted.

Robert Walker did more to hurt sports betting then he ever did to help it.

Fuck him!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

John Kelly

Born Gambler
Staff member
#6
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Thanks for welcoming Robert with such a warm greeting.
 
#7
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Robert Walker?

Are you serious?

:lolxmas

"Give us back that ticket or you will never bet here again."

Remember that asshole.

Was that one of your best ideas? HUH!
 
#8
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Well, whats he talking about? First its some non-sequiter about some bad movie he likes, then he says Cantor will fail because if they are getting heavy action on one side, they ( GET THIS!!!) actually move the number, thus setting themselves up to be middled and giving professionals value due to the line move.
 
#9
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

I would also bet my life the man cost the MGM more money than he made them.

No way did he get the most out of the action the MGM was getting.

No way ... no how!!!!!!!

MGM paid this man for NOTHING!

:lolxmas

100%
 
#10
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

the best way to stop people from betting is not to open....most of these sportsbooks wish they could just book parlays and parlay cards...it is hard to win when the rules say you can only book to walk up customers but have some pride and dignity
 
#11
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

JK, get serious. This guy Walker is an asshole. You know it, I know it. Totally clueless on how to run a sportsbook. And shady too! While waiting approval on wagers, he changed the line on me 7 times in a row. I stopped betting at the MGM/Mirage hotels after that and basically went full time off shore.

I had a friend that would drop over 300k a year betting football. When Walker took over the MGM, he chased the guy away. Would not take his action. Why would you fear a loser? A sharp bookie would welcome him with open arms like Jimmy V, Richie, & Nick did.
 
#12
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Cantor gaming's model= book Floyd Mayweather jr.'s $500,000 NBA/NFL halftime bets. You beat Floyd= positive bottom line. Floyd occasionally beats you = you lose for the day.

Mike Colbert and Robert Walker are both capable bookmakers, both get a little too much credit/ blame at times.
 

John Kelly

Born Gambler
Staff member
#14
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

I'll ask Robert Walker to appear on The EOG Sports Hour.

I'll pose the questions and address the topics brought up in this thread by Mr. Smith, dinkenson and Chuck Sims.

Mr. Met hit the winning note about the credit/blame ascribed to many bookmakers here in Las Vegas.

High Times, I appreciate your battles with Robert Walker over the years but can we please show some decorum and keep the expletives to a minimum?
 
#17
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

I'll ask Robert Walker to appear on The EOG Sports Hour and I'll pose the questions and address the topics brought up in this thread by Mr. Smith, dinkenson and Chuck Sims.

Mr. Met hit the winning note about the credit/blame ascribed to many bookmakers here in Las Vegas.

High Times, I appreciate your battles with Robert Walker over the years but can we please show some decorum and keep the expletives to a minimum?
Why?

He IS NOT A BOOKMAKER!

In fact he is the OPPOSITE of a bookmaker. A real bookmaker uses his sharper bettors to his advantage and also knows the more volume you take (wiseguy and recreational) the better. No real bookmaker tosses Bettors.... They might limit them, but you never need to toss players out of you book.

MGM was one of the worst Las Vegas Books to move the lines AFTER you gave them a bet!

Ask him about that JK ..........

Ask him why he felt he was right to go after bettors and force them to give back tickets or face getting 86ed AFTER the bettors had the ticket paid for and was away from the window. Ask him!

Don't give a man credit for being a fake.....

Being the main man at the MGM means nothing except he was good at nodding/bobbing his head to the upper suits.

:pop:
 
#18
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Mr. Walker threw me out of the Stardust for trying to bet a 50 exacta...after he refused my bet I gave him my opinon of his book...

But good to see he is posting here....
 

John Kelly

Born Gambler
Staff member
#20
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Why?

He IS NOT A BOOKMAKER!

In fact he is the OPPOSITE of a bookmaker. A real bookmaker uses his sharper bettors to his advantage and also knows the more volume you take (wiseguy and recreational) the better. No real bookmaker tosses Bettors.... They might limit them, but you never need to toss players out of you book.

MGM was one of the worst Las Vegas Books to move the lines AFTER you gave them a bet!

Ask him about that JK ..........

Ask him why he felt he was right to go after bettors and force them to give back tickets or face getting 86ed AFTER the bettors had the ticket paid for and was away from the window. Ask him!

Don't give a man credit for being a fake.....

Being the main man at the MGM means nothing except he was good at nodding/bobbing his head to the upper suits.

:pop:
I'll address your comments if Robert accepts the invitation to appear on the radio show.
 

pbovi

EOG Dedicated
#21
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

I admire the way Cantor runs their book in many ways, particularly how their lines reflect opinion. For the consumer (bettor), it is always advantageous to have different philosophies guiding the line making/moving process and not some boiler plate operation in which they just copy a move of a high profile book. If Cantor lacks in any area it is that they are slow to post numbers, case in point being bowl totals which you do not see until a few days before the game. On the other hand, what other book do you know of that would give you access to lines from other venues, which Cantor does right from their personal betting stations? They also don't bust your balls about using your computer. What a pleasure. They are customer friendly which is far from the norm. As I read into this, it appears that Mr. Walker somehow believes the books should band together, stay with a unified philosophy which of course means in the end the bettors get screwed. In the airline industry, if a discounter invades a market, the big boys are pissed because their collusion practice no longer works as they can't continue to fix the price.

In the case of the Mirage, I found myself gravitating away from the property around the year 2000 and onward when a few questionable things happened. In one instance, I wagered on a straight side and a parlay using the same team, and the parlay was dealt to me with a .5 change in the line. They refused to correct it. Certainly this all comes back to the sports book director, in this case Mr. Walker. That said, he is/was not alone. I found the books came full circle as management changed and different philosophies reigned.

I think books here in Vegas are intimidated by Cantor because they, the books, are slowly becoming antiquated through Cantor's advances in the various aspects of how they run their business.

In Darwinian terms (Charles Darwin), Cantor is a new breed that is looking to capitalize on spaces in the competitive landscape left open by older, larger and stodgy companies. I think Mr. Walker finds that a bit intimidating in that he and some of his peers from yesteryear may just have to step outside the box which is something they must do or they will become extinct.

 
#25
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Wow. Merry Christmas. Thanks JK for the kind words.

I knew when I posted that story, I would take some heat.

Chuck Sims has followed my career closely apparently. He claims I chased a good friend of his and that I moved the line seven times in a row while he was waiting for approval.

Nonsense.

I have never chased a guy that has won -- ever. I have lowered their limits if we were extending to them.

I have sent them packing if they were sending in beards to bet parlay cards, etc.

I don't think that Chuck realizes that you can't book to faces if you eliminate the faces.

The only people I have chased are the ones that have attempted to manipulate our limits. If our limits on pro football were $30,000 and we got hit at multiple properties at the same time, then whoever bet it first got the bet.

We did not void all of the tickets. If a professional player wanted to keep the ticket after we were already hit on it, they could -- but it would be the last time.

My guess is that chuck always missed the number.

When you are running several books this happens as all of the professional bettors are trying to get to the move.

Most of the bettors understood this. Chuck apparently did not and I am sorry that we could not explain it better to him.

Of course, if I kicked out everybody, it is amazing that we would ever get hit simultaneously.

We did, on occasion, have new betting groups that would try to bet at the same time at different properties. We informed them of our rules and usually that was that.

Also, to the guy who would bet his life that I cost our books more money then I made them, I would only reply that every nearly every book I managed or took over brought substantially more to the bottom line. Substantially more. I say nearly because my good friend Jeff Stoneback did an excellent job of managing the Circus circus properties.

As for the Pinnacle model being similar to the Cantor model. No I don't think that it is. Pinnacle, for the time being, can get bets from all over the world, not just Nevada. There are simply just a handful of professional players or high rollers in Las Vegas. To think that you can cater to them and win is folly. Pinnacle is also not paying an extreme dollar amount to lease books in Nevada. Cantor has overpaid for the M and probably others as well because they were confident in their methodology. And that is my point -- their methodology is flawed.

As for being an asshole -- my ex wifes and girlfriends would probably agree.
 
#27
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Pbovi I do not doubt your story about betting the side and parlay and having a different number on the parlay. This would happen to bettors often as we change lines due to straight bets. It may have been because of yours, or someone hit that side before you were betting the parlay.

I can assure you we were not trying to squeeze a nickel out of you. One of the problems with running 12 properties has always been moving a number back to its original while people are trying to bet.

We have been double and triple popped moving a number back so our only alternative has been to stop betting on that game throughout all our properties. A difficult prop at post time.

I think the one thing that gets lost in these threads is I don't begrudge the professional player from trying to do their job. I do take exception to those trying to either manipulate or circumvent our limits.

My job was to make sure that did not happen. We had limits for a reason. 99.9 percent of the players at the MGM MIRAGE or the Stardust never had an issue.
 
#28
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

But it's simply not fair to tell bettors that you got the bet at another property. How does the bettor know this is true?

Why was there NOT a system in use that would prevent this?

Do you even care about that?

And the only reason I would bring this up is because 1 of your property's took the bet and then wanted it cancelled.

My whole problem with this is that these Las Vegas Casinos should not be allowed to take a bet AND the money from a bettor and then claim they got that bet at another property. That opens up CHEATING.

Your whole attitude is obvious.

You are jealous of the sharp bettors and do whatever you can to avoid taking bets from them.

And I am one of these people who hate steam chasers, but if you take a bet !!!!!!

You have to honor it !!!!!

Your Casino never took measures to avoid this taking back bets or "out come the threats"

You are not even hiding the fact you threatened to 86 bettors if they didn't give the ticket back that they already paid for!!!

:pop:

And I know you would never cheat a customer.
 
#29
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Pbovi I do not doubt your story about betting the side and parlay and having a different number on the parlay. This would happen to bettors often as we change lines due to straight bets. It may have been because of yours, or someone hit that side before you were betting the parlay.

I can assure you we were not trying to squeeze a nickel out of you. One of the problems with running 12 properties has always been moving a number back to its original while people are trying to bet.

We have been double and triple popped moving a number back so our only alternative has been to stop betting on that game throughout all our properties. A difficult prop at post time.

I think the one thing that gets lost in these threads is I don't begrudge the professional player from trying to do their job. I do take exception to those trying to either manipulate or circumvent our limits.

My job was to make sure that did not happen. We had limits for a reason. 99.9 percent of the players at the MGM MIRAGE or the Stardust never had an issue.
The second you got a steam bet or any bet from one of the so-called pros you should have had a system in place that takes the game off the board INSTANTLY like all the off-shore have so that no clerk could even type in a bet.

I am sure that would not have been too difficult, but from where I sit I think it's more like these books being run by lazy people who really don't care about the sharper bettors.

And to be allowed to "take back tickets" or face 86 SHOULD BE ILLEGAL.

period
 
#30
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

I wonder if you had made a big bet on the other side of the game if he would have demanded you come back and return the ticket because the number got much better?
 
#31
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

And I would not criticize Cantor specifically, except for the disparaging remarks it has made about the Nevada Sports Betting industry. An industry that I love and peers that I respect greatly.
Every thinking bettor is following the Cantor experiment with interest, and it's good to read Robert's "won't work" side of the argument. Cantor's premise, as I understand it, is that in the long run there will be ubiquitous sports betting including mobile and they will be able to generate Pinnaclesque volume on straight and more than that on in-game.

Robert would you agree that the Nevada Sports Betting Industry hasn't been very innovative over the past twenty years, and in fact has gotten more and more conservative in what they offer bettors?

I realize it's the bean counters fault and all, but for whatever reason the bookmaking fraternity certainly has seemed insular and whatever the word is for the opposite of innovative. From that perspective, it's nice to see someone with a different kind of market-making expertise take their shot.
 
#32
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

I wonder if you had made a big bet on the other side of the game if he would have demanded you come back and return the ticket because the number got much better?
You make a bet that you didn't want?

They would tell you "we're sorry, we can't do anything about that"

:finger004

Great point and another reason the practice of taking back bets should not be legal.
 
#33
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

You make a bet that you didn't want?

They would tell you "we're sorry, we can't do anything about that"

:finger004

Great point and another reason the practice of taking back bets should not be legal.
my point was if the number was hit hard and you bet it, they asked for the ticket back, right?

What if you happened to like team b in a game and at the same time other properties were hammered on team A. Would he tell you that you cant have that worse line since since it moved so much and he wants to give you a better ticket? If not, then what they are doing is stealing.
 
#34
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

99.9 percent of the players at the MGM MIRAGE or the Stardust never had an issue.
This is the same rational used by the worst of the worst offshore books

We only steal from a small amount of players. Those who bet big and win.

Congrats, while having a nationwide monopoly on legalized sportsbetting you ran a place with big pockets on the Strip like a shithole offshore scam book like BetUS.

congrats on that. Sure is sharp business
 

pbovi

EOG Dedicated
#35
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Pbovi I do not doubt your story about betting the side and parlay and having a different number on the parlay. This would happen to bettors often as we change lines due to straight bets. It may have been because of yours, or someone hit that side before you were betting the parlay.

I can assure you we were not trying to squeeze a nickel out of you. One of the problems with running 12 properties has always been moving a number back to its original while people are trying to bet.

We have been double and triple popped moving a number back so our only alternative has been to stop betting on that game throughout all our properties. A difficult prop at post time.

I think the one thing that gets lost in these threads is I don't begrudge the professional player from trying to do their job. I do take exception to those trying to either manipulate or circumvent our limits.

My job was to make sure that did not happen. We had limits for a reason. 99.9 percent of the players at the MGM MIRAGE or the Stardust never had an issue.
Appreciate your response. I will tell you that the side and the parlay was to the best of my recollection, a couple dimes a piece. They were called out simultaneously. I think it could have been handled better though I can appreciate the problems in trying to defend against the situations you mentioned. Unfortunately it was not isolated. On a positive note, there were some nice people I dealt with there over the years, specifically Yolanda, and a few others.
 
#36
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

This is the same rational used by the worst of the worst offshore books

We only steal from a small amount of players. Those who bet big and win.

Congrats, while having a nationwide monopoly on legalized sportsbetting you ran a place with big pockets on the Strip like a shithole offshore scam book like BetUS.

congrats on that. Sure is sharp business

Best post of the thread!

:cheers
 
#37
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

High Times we simply did not have the software for what you suggest. It took us 20 years to get the software in place that would now allow first half wagers to game wager parlays.

I was never happy about our process on limit wagers when they were hit at multiple times. We had talked about lowering the limits so that if we got hit multiple times it would be fine.

However, we also talked to our pro players and overwhelmingly they wanted us to keep the limits high and first come, first served.

I always envied the individual properties that did not have this nightmare.

but once again High Times, this only impacted the professional player (or runner) not anyone else at the MGM MIRAGE.

To JFHST18 I think your point is valid. We were extremely conservative as an industry. Partly our fault and partly we were restricted by gaming.

We wanted to book what the Dow would close every Friday and poker results, but were turned down at that time by gaming.

We developed an automated betting system (telebet) that was great, but gaming imposed a $1000 day betting limit (I think that was the number) on it. That number was completely arbitrary.

If that wasn't bad enough, Gaming then forced us to use a beeper system to verify that the bets were coming from Nevada.

I think you get the picture. We had to use antiquated technology to ensure our future growth.

To make a long story short, we lost millions in the process.

Two things I would've like to have done was index betting and parimutuel wagering on nascar and other like events.

I think it would've been nice to accept exactas and daily doubles on golf, nascar, etc. And I wouldn't have to kick VJ out for making a $50 wager.

The other issue I would bring up and JK knows this to be true is that upper management is not willing to spend a lot of money on innovation in the book.

The sportsbooks in Nevada are a draw and should be profitable. But there are other areas to spend our money on.

I think from that standpoint, Cantor has been good. They do not have to answer to anyone and have been developing some nice features.

I don't believe most bettors will every utilize them (in my opinion bettors at the MGM MIRAGE want to bet and relax and watch the game).

However, there is still a market for them.

My point, and obviously I did not do a perfect job, was that doing anything to get two way is a quick way to the poor house.

I believe Cantor has recognized this already. And has made changes in its early limits.

They have also reduced Las Vegas Sports Consultants to nearly nothing. Roxy, who founded LVSC and Vic Salerno have probably done more for Nevada sports books than any other person.
 
#38
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

PBOVI -- One of the things we told all of our players was to bet the parlay first. This would eliminate the problem.

I wish we would've handled your situation better.

And you are right. Yolanda is the best.
 
#39
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

High Times we simply did not have the software for what you suggest. It took us 20 years to get the software in place that would now allow first half wagers to game wager parlays.

I was never happy about our process on limit wagers when they were hit at multiple times. We had talked about lowering the limits so that if we got hit multiple times it would be fine.

However, we also talked to our pro players and overwhelmingly they wanted us to keep the limits high and first come, first served.

I always envied the individual properties that did not have this nightmare.

but once again High Times, this only impacted the professional player (or runner) not anyone else at the MGM MIRAGE.

To JFHST18 I think your point is valid. We were extremely conservative as an industry. Partly our fault and partly we were restricted by gaming.

We wanted to book what the Dow would close every Friday and poker results, but were turned down at that time by gaming.

We developed an automated betting system (telebet) that was great, but gaming imposed a $1000 day betting limit (I think that was the number) on it. That number was completely arbitrary.

If that wasn't bad enough, Gaming then forced us to use a beeper system to verify that the bets were coming from Nevada.

I think you get the picture. We had to use antiquated technology to ensure our future growth.

To make a long story short, we lost millions in the process.

Two things I would've like to have done was index betting and parimutuel wagering on nascar and other like events.

I think it would've been nice to accept exactas and daily doubles on golf, nascar, etc. And I wouldn't have to kick VJ out for making a $50 wager.

The other issue I would bring up and JK knows this to be true is that upper management is not willing to spend a lot of money on innovation in the book.

The sportsbooks in Nevada are a draw and should be profitable. But there are other areas to spend our money on.

I think from that standpoint, Cantor has been good. They do not have to answer to anyone and have been developing some nice features.

I don't believe most bettors will every utilize them (in my opinion bettors at the MGM MIRAGE want to bet and relax and watch the game).

However, there is still a market for them.

My point, and obviously I did not do a perfect job, was that doing anything to get two way is a quick way to the poor house.

I believe Cantor has recognized this already. And has made changes in its early limits.

They have also reduced Las Vegas Sports Consultants to nearly nothing. Roxy, who founded LVSC and Vic Salerno have probably done more for Nevada sports books than any other person.
Thank you.

It is what it is ......

The only problem I have with your thinking is this....

You say it's the pros (1%) that didn't like the cancelling of bets situation. Or guys just trying to get in on the moves, but

You and your Casino are supposed to be PROFESSIONALS. In fact YOU ARE PROFESSIONALS but don't want to deal with PROFESSIONALS?

Whether they are runners/bettors or originators or just some of us who work alone and are looking for good lines/odds why do you think it's OK to LABEL them as BAD and would screw around with them?

As a professional you and your Casinos you worked for acted in a very UNPROFESSIONAL manor.

That is all. ......

Do you agree?
 
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