Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Flamingo kid

Everybody's hands go UP!
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

FK, it doesn't take long for a good bookmaker to know who the pros are. It has nothing to do with winning or losing.
I guess my question is this. Is there a difference between 'pro' and someone who's 'very good'.? To me, a pro is someone who doesnt actually work for a living and their income is derived strictly from sports betting.

Also, why does it matter? They hang up a line, what's the difference if a pro bets 5k on one side or a little old lady from pasadena (not a beard) bets the same side with 5k? If they don't want the pro betting 5k, they might want to consider making a better line.
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Hi Flamingokid a pro is the same as a wiseguy in my mind. They were sharp players looking for value.

Most we knew, some it took us time to discover that every time they wagered the line would move in their direction. This was fine as long as we were not overextending to them.

We book to faces and it does matter significantly who is betting. There are numerous times we took large, sometimes more than our limits and did not move the number.

However, we always moved the number on a pro play (unless it was Super Bowl or another huge event and then we would tell that player they could bet more if they wanted to).

Our goal was to use the pro or sharp player to put us in line where we could take bets from the public. We never wanted the pros and the public to be on the same side as there was no way of getting anything close to two way (once again without doing something crazy).

Wise guys do lose all of the time. That is why on anyone game a book can claim they extended to a wise guy (ala Cantor in the Pitt-GB Super Bowl) and say how it worked out for them. IN the long run it is not a prudent idea to think you will be the professional bettor over time.
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

I will give him credit too.

I will say that he was given a job to do and was told what to do and he did it.

It's just too bad that he got this idea that you can't make MORE money from just offering fair odds and let everyone bet. These places are gold mines, but the Casinos were tired of getting ripped off by their own sports books managers.

Robert stopped that.

My only problem with him is that not everybody is a scumbag. We are all not trying to gain advantages the wrong way. That is with the double bets or finding some really bad lines and taking advantages of them.

I for 1 was not a scumbag "steam chaser" but got treated like 1 at some of the MGM books and other Casinos too.

It simply is not fair to group all limit bettors into the same category.

Some of us were very nice to these books but got treated like crap in return.

It just wasn't with the lines/odds ... It was the way these Casino employees treated you.

You know ...

You guys want to act like we have it made, but the reality is we work hard too and a lot of us are honest and want to make money the honest way.

Just because I wear shorts everyday doesn't mean I don't work hard and risk my money.

Peace
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Greek uses 20 cent baseball lines, Cigar uses 20 cent baseball lines, Pinnacle takes $250 on added CBB halves. Art from Catalina wont put up CBB totals or half times. Are these guys Pussies too?
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

I guess my question is this. Is there a difference between 'pro' and someone who's 'very good'.? To me, a pro is someone who doesnt actually work for a living and their income is derived strictly from sports betting.

Also, why does it matter? They hang up a line, what's the difference if a pro bets 5k on one side or a little old lady from pasadena (not a beard) bets the same side with 5k? If they don't want the pro betting 5k, they might want to consider making a better line.

For a Las Vegas Casino sports book.......

It shouldn't matter who or where the money is coming from.

After all they are not supposed to be playing the role of the OPINIONATED sports book.

:pop:
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Greek uses 20 cent baseball lines, Cigar uses 20 cent baseball lines, Pinnacle takes $250 on added CBB halves. Art from Catalina wont put up CBB totals or half times. Are these guys Pussies too?
No but they obviously can't hire someone who can make them money on these sports.
 

Flamingo kid

Everybody's hands go UP!
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Hi Flamingokid a pro is the same as a wiseguy in my mind. They were sharp players looking for value.

Most we knew, some it took us time to discover that every time they wagered the line would move in their direction. This was fine as long as we were not overextending to them.

We book to faces and it does matter significantly who is betting. There are numerous times we took large, sometimes more than our limits and did not move the number.

However, we always moved the number on a pro play (unless it was Super Bowl or another huge event and then we would tell that player they could bet more if they wanted to).

Our goal was to use the pro or sharp player to put us in line where we could take bets from the public. We never wanted the pros and the public to be on the same side as there was no way of getting anything close to two way (once again without doing something crazy).

Wise guys do lose all of the time. That is why on anyone game a book can claim they extended to a wise guy (ala Cantor in the Pitt-GB Super Bowl) and say how it worked out for them. IN the long run it is not a prudent idea to think you will be the professional bettor over time.

Thanks.

I guess my next question would be....isnt it your job to put up a line where the pro's are not wanting to bet into that line? Why lose a big bet to the first pro who jumps on the sunday night/early monday morning NFL lines when you could just make a better line and not have that happen?
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

High Times -- I don't believe we tried to stop anyone from betting, if they bet the limits. ONce we moved it they could hit it again and so on.

I would never allow us to get double or triple popped as that is just wrong from our standpoint. Aside from that anyone could bet whatever was on the board.

People like Chuck Sims saying that he tried to wager seven times in a row on games where we changed the line, were just bettors who missed the number.

I highly doubt that charge by the way.

I would like to talk to you in person High Times to see if I remember you. I will be visiting Vegas soon I hope.

One thing, whether or not you were a professional bettor, a two dollar bettor or a runner, being discourteous on my end is inexcusable.

Customer service was always the toughest issue. There is a high burn out factor with tellers and supervisors and it was a constant source of aggravation.

I believe that my biggest weakness while in Vegas was dealing with those that I felt were out to "f" us. I could've been more patient and understanding, but there was always an adveserial relationship there. And I wish I could've done a better job in that area.
 

Flamingo kid

Everybody's hands go UP!
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

For a Las Vegas Casino sports book.......

It shouldn't matter who or where the money is coming from.

After all they are not supposed to be playing the role of the OPINIONATED sports book.

:pop:
That's what i was thinking. If they had better lines, they wouldnt have to worry about sharps and squares too much...they could just be 'men' and put up a line and treat everyone the same, you either bet or you dont.
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

FK.

There are oddsmakers and there are bookmakers. Dont confuse the two.
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Flamingokid you are exactly right. We would try to put up a line as high on every game as we could possibly make it without the pros taking the dog right out of the gate. That is why there is usually value with underdogs.

We desperately did not want to open a game too low and have the wise guys lay the favorite. It happens, but we don't like it.

It is much easier now with offshore, but prior to that we had no idea what was going on elsewhere and at the Stardust we were the opening line.
 

Flamingo kid

Everybody's hands go UP!
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

FK.

There are oddsmakers and there are bookmakers. Dont confuse the two.
I understand. My point is that if you hang up a 'bad line' (whoever is responsible) and a 'pro' hammers that line and takes your money, why be mad at the pro? Be mad at yourself for making a bad line...its not the pro's fault you fucked it up.
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

We were not opinionated. We just didn't want to take on a partner in the pro player. But it is your opinion that we should not be opinionated because you believe in a certain way to book. I believe in a different one.
 

Flamingo kid

Everybody's hands go UP!
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Flamingokid you are exactly right. We would try to put up a line as high on every game as we could possibly make it without the pros taking the dog right out of the gate. That is why there is usually value with underdogs.

We desperately did not want to open a game too low and have the wise guys lay the favorite. It happens, but we don't like it.

It is much easier now with offshore, but prior to that we had no idea what was going on elsewhere and at the Stardust we were the opening line.

Thanks. I enjoy being 'exactly right'!

:lock:
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Once again. We did not kick out or get "mad" at the pro player for kicking our ass. We attempted to control that player with our betting limits (which were amongst the highest in the state). We did not try to lower their limits, circle the games or anything else.

We got beat consistently by certain players and we would be aggressive when moving them.

WE DID NOT CHASE WINNERS. Or those who got the best number, only those who tried through one means or another to circumvent our limits.
 

Flamingo kid

Everybody's hands go UP!
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

We were not opinionated. We just didn't want to take on a partner in the pro player. But it is your opinion that we should not be opinionated because you believe in a certain way to book. I believe in a different one.
Was this directed at me? Im not sure what you mean.
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Sometimes this forum reminds me of the disgruntled employee who claims that even if the boss does not like you he will fire you for no reason. In fact, he got fired because he would not kiss the bosses behind. But what that employee will never tell you is that he got caught stealing from the company.

I feel this is the same theme for the very few that we tossed out of our books. They were up to no good.
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

We were not opinionated. We just didn't want to take on a partner in the pro player. But it is your opinion that we should not be opinionated because you believe in a certain way to book. I believe in a different one.
Let me tone it down a little and say that I was never tossed out of an MGM sports book or told to NOT bet there.

I have been asked to give back a bet that was called in 3 minutes later. I was told they got double hit, but the bet was called in ..... as YOU would know ...... the women down there knew me very well and no manager of yours would take a limit bet from one of us without calling it in and you know that.

But that's history ... no problem.

The fact that I didn't like the way the MGM was run is meaningless. I get it.

There are/were and always will be other places to make a bet.

I'm sorry for the way I acted, but I respect everyone and simply ask for that in return.

And if you didn't read what I wrote ... I hate steam chasers too ... There's not a bookmaker in the world that will take getting double bet on a steam bet. Nobody in their right mind would have a problem with that.

But I will say that it seemed to me that in the mornings you guys would move the lines before you took bets on them. More then once I walked into the Mirage to make a bet and the manager standing there would wait until I got to the window and change the number. And laughed.

They did this to a lot of people.

That wasn't cool
 

Flamingo kid

Everybody's hands go UP!
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Let me tone it down a little and say that I was never tossed out of an MGM sports book or told to NOT bet there.

I have been asked to give back a bet that was called in 3 minutes later. I was told they got double hit, but the bet was called in ..... as YOU would know ...... the women down there knew me very well and no manager of yours would take a limit bet from one of us without calling it in and you know that.

But that's history ... no problem.

The fact that I didn't like the way the MGM was run is meaningless. I get it.

There are/were and always will be other places to make a bet.

I'm sorry for the way I acted, but I respect everyone and simply ask for that in return.

And if you didn't read what I wrote ... I hate steam chasers too ... There's not a bookmaker in the world that will take getting double bet on a steam bet. Nobody in their right mind would have a problem with that.

But I will say that it seemed to me that in the mornings you guys would move the lines before you took bets on them. More then once I walked into the Mirage to make a bet and the manager standing there would wait until I got to the window and change the number. And laughed.

They did this to a lot of people.

That wasn't cool

This is why i ask what the line is before making a bet. Im not sure if it was an MGM property or not, but i tried to make a bet one time and they told me "oops, the big toteboard is wrong, the real line is this".

Just ask before tipping your hand on which side you want.
 

scrimmage

What you contemplate you imitate
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Speaking of Cantor:
Chicago bettor collects $75,000 first prize
in Cantor Football Contest


Updated on 12/29/2011
By Dave Tuley
The other big season-long ATS handicapping contest in Las Vegas ? the Cantor 2011 Football Contest ? was a relative walkover.

A 34-year-old from Chicago, David Frohardt-Lane (he said the hyphenated last name is a combination of his parents? surnames), is the runaway winner as he has compiled a record of 54-32-4 (71 percent after pushes disregarded) against the spread in winning the Cantor contest. His nearest competitor is 47-31-2.

Frohardt-Lane said it was a bit of an accident that he even entered the Cantor contest.
?I used to bet more offshore before that got harder to do,? he said. ?I wanted to be involved and have weekly action. I?ve known about the SuperContest for years and always wanted to enter it. When I was coming out here I heard about the Cantor contest and decided to try that, too.?

Vegas contests allow the use of a local proxy to put in weekly plays as long as the entrant shows up and registers in person. Frohardt-Lane used Vegas Matty of footballcontestproxy.com for both contests.

Excerpt from and to read the rest:
http://www.drf.com/news/chicago-bettor-collects-75000-first-prize-cantor-football-contest

 

Horseshoe

EOG Senior Member
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Viejo, JK, or RW, what became of Bob 'Blackie' Black that worked for Gene Mayday, and was later a strong player(betting into fat openers) around town, is he still going strong?
 

Horseshoe

EOG Senior Member
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

I don't know where he lived. Just remember meeting him once at Mayday's Lil C, and seeing his name as a smartmark on sheets(along w/ BW, BB, Tiger, Chip, Pokers, Tomato, Ghost, Bagel, Tug, Swamper, Cowboy, Delmar Larry, Orlando Larry, Chinaman, The Lunatics, Doc M, Buzzard, Boston Red, QT, Koshers, Greek, Lem, Herbie Hoops, Yogi, Terry, Skip, Roger, Cigar, etc..)..

Around the mid-nineties, he was popping the openers for the limits.
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

That's him....lots of good guys you have mentioned in your post....

Heard he was taking it easy and playing golf; but that was last year...
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Blackie is/was one of the nicest people to ever work in this industry.

The man was total class and was great to deal with.

Can't think of too many people better!
 

Horseshoe

EOG Senior Member
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

How could I have mentioned Bagel without Donut..gotta keep your old-school New York breakfast food group together.

I miss those eras, the industry was much more fun back then.
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

How could I have mentioned Bagel without Donut..gotta keep your old-school New York breakfast food group together.

I miss those eras, the industry was much more fun back then.
Without a doubt Horseshoe...everyone made book to book transfers and bookmakers and players helped each other out when necessary...(circa 1995) Those characters you mentioned would be a good start on writing a book about the beginnings of offshore and how they interacted with Las Vegas books...

High Times...never heard anyone speak a bad word about Blackie...he opened up a couple major books with his baseball...
 

pokerjoe

EOG Senior Member
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Technology can cure many of these conflicts, and we're close to these advances.

Parlay cards could be printed upon request or electronically inputted, at the window or a kiosk, and thus always up-to-date (printed maybe with a 15-minute usage stipulation).

Limits should be transparent, so that lines should read -3' -110 (24), the number in parentheses being the current limit, changing automatically so that if a bettor at another window hits it for a nickel, it drops to (19), and if someone bets the other side for a nickel, it would rise to (29).

To eliminate limit circumvention, big pops should show automatically, so that if a sharp goes to bet the limit at one window while another sharp (confederate or not) hits it at the same time at another window, the software will auto-reject the latest bet and the teller could say, "Sorry, your bet didn't go through because we just took a limit bet at window 4, casino xyz." And there is no betting at exactly the same time to a computer, so one of the limit bet attempts would be shot down.

A book should never reject bettors, nor care who wins, as long as limits aren't being circumvented. A good book does nothing but profit from its sharpest players.
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Pokerjoe I believe the next generation software will be able to incorporate some of what you say.

I believe in Europe for soccer betting they have that now. It is automated and shuts off after a certain dollar amount.

We looked at a few of their systems.

I don't really want that as I am committed to the booking to faces method. All bets are not the same by any stretch.

Now if I had 100 bettors playing $100 a game or so, I would automate everything and just come back every once in a while to check it. I wish I could do that up here in Washington right now.
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Bob "Toledo" Black, aka Blackie still lives in Vegas and in STCC. He is 85 or so has a 60 year old "girl" and still plays golf every day and can break 100 for fun as a 19 handicap. Still bets baseball and is one of the GOOD GUYS.
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

love blackie....he and joe nails were my two favorite customers in those bygone days...joe helped me with my first vegas home......glad to see the love for blackie....
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Blackie was always first to pay you on Monday...always called me Sunday night for a figure...trouble was that we always were the ones paying...:lol
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

the tourists and locals hate the mgm. 99- present day Customer service to tourists also very LOW quality. Clerks were rude and managers knew very little and sense of entitlment.
 

John Kelly

Born Gambler
Staff member
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Walker's retirement was curious, to say the least.

He was at the top of his profession and simply left the industry.

I remember Robert saying he wanted to serve others in the next chapter of his life.
 

bomzee

EOG Dedicated
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

The problem with Walker's attitude and policies is that his places ultimately would become places in general to avoid for sports bettor which is a WRONG and unnecessary message to send to players. Alienating customers doesn't work.It backfires. It actually skews the greedy fuzzy math they use to justify their conduct. Places and especially the super nice places that Walker ran absolutely should NOT send that signal.Reading between the lines Walker embraces that arrogant attitude.Please come to my place but promise to lose.It's like a bad faith insurance company that refuses to pay a legit claim- he wants things both ways.

I'll give credit-at least Walker consistently admits his crappy self serving attitude.He even spells it out in black and white.:whip:
Looking back it is not surprising that the head up their ass upper management idiots at all times were on board with Walker and his poor narrow minded thinking attitude.
Walker probably thinks I don't get his message.That unto itself is a bad thing.
The best mangers understand that you can be a players manger without giving away the farm.
 
Re: Why Cantor Gaming will either fail or revamp its bookmaking philosophy

Keith Glantz understood the relationship between customer and book....so did Nick B. from the Horseshoe...those kinds of guys are few and far between...
 
Top