WeinketoWarrick
EOG Master
Servis and Navarro are worse.
Post-race analysis of the Kentucky Derby
- Thread starter John Kelly
- Start date
Interesting that the unwritten rule seems to purport that there is no ethical requirement to claim a foul.
How about if a horse falls because of interference and breaks his leg? Does the result here mitigate a foul claim?
How about if the interference causes the jockey to fall and break his neck? Any foul claimed or is it just tough luck?
mr merlin
EOG Master
Ok, specifically what do they do that's worse than the rest? Are you saying they drug their horses, but they seldom get caught, but you're sure they do it?
I always hear this drug talk...rocket fuel drugs, etc, but racing speeds dont improve? If they were drugged they'd break records wouldn't they?
BenoitPaire2
EOG Veteran
From nearly 2000 starters in the last five years, the ultra high percentage Jason Servis barn has had 39 starters returning in 1-14 days and has 4 wins, good for a $0.47 ROI. Obviously it is not something Servis does effectively, which is unfathomable given his prolific stable.
Got it from twitrer
Got it from twitrer
ChiTownJoe
EOG Dedicated
Bob, anytime a horse or jockey falls, the inquiry sign is posted so the stewards can take a look.
What's so strange about a jockey colony is that right after the race, you go sit in the same room with the guy who just cut you off and might have cost you your life. Plenty of fights in the jock room.
In light of the Derby controversy and to protect public trust, stewards should conduct inquiries into the running of every race, regardless of jockey's objections.
Harness racing is virtually dead in this country due to a lack of public trust in the game's integrity.
Harness racing is virtually dead in this country due to a lack of public trust in the game's integrity.
I see now that Maximum Security's owners said he came out of the race with cuts on his hind legs and that is the reason he won't be running in the Preakness. Without the cuts, they likely would've gone on to Pimlico. I thought there had to be a reason besides the quick turnaround.
I don't really hate these guys. As bettors, one has to acknowledge there's big "move up" trainers. Guys like Servis, Navarro, Jamie Ness, among others, who have had amazing records improving horses off the claim. Some of these guys get caught, and go back to being 12% winning barns.
richsox24
EOG Master
So if the 1 goes down because his legs got clipped by the 7, would you still say they 7 shouldn't be DQ'd because he was the best horse in the race?
blueline
EOG Master
Interesting
blueline
EOG Master
Essentially its unless I'm going to benefit I'm not going to be responsible for another guy losing a purse....just how it is.
blueline
EOG Master
Horses are faster now than ever before.
Chemists and vets are ahead of the curve.
BenoitPaire2
EOG Veteran
It’s the fact that Navarro and Servis will claim shitty, cheap horses who can’t win, and then improve them 15-20 beyer points first off the claim a few weeks later. If it happened once or twice? That’s fine... but it happens all the time.
Monmouth meet has started... keep an eye on the unheard of %s that both trainers win at there. Monmouth has always looked away when it game to these two, because they bring sooo many horses to the track.
blueline
EOG Master
if youre alluding to my comments I was saying what I would do..2 weeks is too soon with no TC on the line..sounds like west is getting heat...now cuts...maybe some spin maybe real
"Not running in the Preakness wasn’t sour grapes,’’ Servis said. ``We’ve got to go for 3-year-old of the year now. The horse has cuts. If he had won the Derby we would have done the Preakness, but to come back in two weeks? He breezed the morning of the race, he ran a mile-and-1/4 quarter that day, then he shipped to Monmouth. Then to come back in 14 days, that’s a lot. I’d rather be able to space him until I feel good that when I’m leading him over, he’s 100 percent.’
ChiTownJoe
EOG Dedicated
Did the 1 run up on the 7 and clip heels, or did the 7 move out into a path the 1 was taking and cause the clip heels , there are two ways to interpret that question?
richsox24
EOG Master
I was saying assuming it happened like it did. The 7 veered out at into the 1's legs. I'm not sure that part is disputable. Even the jock of the 7 when interviewed after the race admitted the 7 veered out. He said it was because of it being a young horse, track conditions, crowd noise, etc.
I'm just asking hypothetically if the 1 went down, should the 7 then be DQ'd?
The fact that the 1 didn't go down doesn't change the severity of the infraction.
ChiTownJoe
EOG Dedicated
I think it is disputable.
I think in the slow motion replay it shows the 7 in his path (tire track) and the 1 runs up and looks like he might have made contact with hind legs of 7.
The 7 switches leads and drifts out 2 paths.
I think anytime a horse goes down like Positive Spirit in Oaks clipping heels with Jaywalk (DQ) the horse is getting DQ'd. So if the 1 went down, the INQUIRY is going up and the 7 is DQ'd.
To me it is telling that the stewards didn't post the INQUIRY, they saw nothing egregious during the actual running of the race to say hey we have to take another took at this.
The start of the derby (first 1/4 mile) is so roughly run with 20 horses looking for position I always think it is a miracle someone doesn't clip heels and go down, it is going to happen some year.
richsox24
EOG Master
I don't think the 1st part of your post is disputable. Saez,, himself, admitted he veered out and just blamed it on a bunch of different reasons.
BenoitPaire2
EOG Veteran
It’s Not disputable at all... war of will went straight. Maximum security moved 2+ Paths over right as WOW was about to pass him.
See this tweet if you have any doubts:
It’s pathetic that gaffalione has to defend himself on a race in which he did nothing wrong and his horse got impeded.
See this tweet if you have any doubts:
It’s pathetic that gaffalione has to defend himself on a race in which he did nothing wrong and his horse got impeded.
trytrytry
All I do is trytrytry
WOW the problem. LOL
agree Benoit sell it elsewhere.
if only that damn MS would have stayed in path, 95% MS would have won. he ran a monster good race, even with the swerving, cost me so much. Im at piece with the take down, wish they would have kept the order, no inquiry, or maybe more like I wish long range toddy did not bother to claim foul, no upside for him , not sure he really had much horse left anyway and even with objection nothing changes for him, , and I really wish country house (ie MOTT) did not claim foul he was so lightly bumped in all of that. but it is what it is. it was surreal being there watching that.
agree Benoit sell it elsewhere.
if only that damn MS would have stayed in path, 95% MS would have won. he ran a monster good race, even with the swerving, cost me so much. Im at piece with the take down, wish they would have kept the order, no inquiry, or maybe more like I wish long range toddy did not bother to claim foul, no upside for him , not sure he really had much horse left anyway and even with objection nothing changes for him, , and I really wish country house (ie MOTT) did not claim foul he was so lightly bumped in all of that. but it is what it is. it was surreal being there watching that.
Bigrunner
EOG Master
Joe, I have a hypothetical, very subjective question for you and others. MS was impressive. The time was not. The 3 horses he rebroke from was impressive. The 3 horses were slow, 2 of them were interfered with?
My question, all conditions the same except size of field. Instead it was a match race between MS and GW. Who wins in your opinion?
ChiTownJoe
EOG Dedicated
I thought the final 1/4 in slop was pretty decent, first 1/2 was also good. Middle 6F very slow --- field bunched up. Last 1/4 pretty good.
Spd is awfully tough in a match race, I would favor MS up to like 1 1/16 and probably GW at 1 1/8 or >.....tough call.
richsox24
EOG Master
So Gaffalione and Saez both say that the 7 came out 2 paths and that the 1 did nothing wrong.
Not sure where all this talk started about the 1 coming in. That's just pretty laughable. Probably started by Andy Beyer, the goof.
ChiTownJoe
EOG Dedicated
Omaha Beach would have been able to move whenever he wanted to, think he would have been where Long Range Toddy was, and he wouldn't have been stopping.
Interesting comments from Assussmen about LRT, who was probably most effected by MS and chain reaction.
Steve Asmussen, trainer of Long Range Toddy (16th) – “it was very unfortunate that it rained. He doesn’t do well on an ‘off’ track. But he was in a good position and then, as we know, the race got real rough.”
ChiTownJoe
EOG Dedicated
https://www.horseracingnation.com/n...ximum_Security_suffered_cuts_during_Derby_123
“This is why Jason said we can’t go — because he’s got abrasions and swollen a little bit,” Glass added. “Mr. West and I, we were leaning toward the Preakness if we got this overturned. We were going to go for the Triple Crown.”
Yes, overturned, as there is still hope by connections they could one day be declared the Kentucky Derby winner. Glass said the nature of the abrasions support their belief that the colt veered out near the 5/16ths pole due to contact from behind by War of Will, and that Maximum Security shouldn’t bear the responsibility of impeding his rivals.
mr merlin
EOG Master
So what does that say about the other horses times?
richsox24
EOG Master
Cmon Joe, So the connections of the 7 are claiming the bumping wasn't the 7's fault? That's shocking!
And its also doesn't fit with what Saez said minutes after the race when he said it was his own horses fault...but blamed in on track conditions, crowd noise, etc.
Ray Luca
EOG Master
Then you should be really mpressed with the Japanese Horse
Screw Andrews
EOG Dedicated
Where does Saez say the 1 never clipped him from behind? TIA
Screw Andrews
EOG Dedicated
Rich I know you follow the ponies well....but have you not seen the pics an video?
richsox24
EOG Master
I saw both. I was just mentioning what Ssez said when interviewed by NBC minutes after the race. He knew his horse veered out, and was explaining why it happened. He never mentioned that it was because the 1 came in first. He blamed a young horse, sloppy track, crowd noise, etc.
As a matter of fact, the 7 got out so much that Saez immediately straightened him up so much so he almost veered all the way into the 13 on the rail (he corrected that in time before causing another interference).
I guess just call it a difference of opinion. The DQ didnt affect me at all. I had the 13 big so after the DQ, I missed a nice winner and huge exacta by 1/2 length.
ChiTownJoe
EOG Dedicated
That horse ran huge, his dad was one of the top rated horses in the world and destroyed a field in Dubai Turf Classic (can’t remember what they call it). I watched his qualifying race and he made a big move on outside from last to finish second. I used him in Tris for 3rd and Supers for 3rd & 4th. Reminds me a little of that other Japan horse Lani that ran 3rd in Belmont about 5 yrs ago.
I’m not a fan of jock, but he gave him a good ride.
Screw Andrews
EOG Dedicated
I hear what you're saying. In fairness I could also believe Saez had no idea of the the slight contact from behind..(that's what it looks like to me). Yes difference of opinion...very big shame all the way around....again I think I align with Baffert's comments more than anything else I have heard on the subject
ChiTownJoe
EOG Dedicated
I still think Luís Sáez was herding, he’ll never admit it, and they let jockeys get away with it all the time.
Then it went bad and the 13 was sneaking through huge opening on rail and he dove down to try to get next to the 13.
If it was just the 7 and the 1 and he pushes him out 2 paths then nothing happens.
Screw Andrews
EOG Dedicated
lol