Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

pbovi

EOG Dedicated
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

Here again is the point you don't get- we can take the word of his daughter's mom about what kind of father he is, or we can take the word of his pick selling tout partner.

Paul, distance yourself for a second and think who the world is more likely to find believable.

See you at Del Mar.
I can do without the backhanded character assassinations Crick.

Let me put it bluntly. I was privy to this as it was it was unfolding and have had multiple conversations with him then and do now. I make a determination based on my gut, which almost always points me in the right direction.

You don't know his wife, you don't know the publisher and you don't know his current state of mind while you are relying on a journalist that clearly had an agenda.

Not suggesting to be in agreement with everything he has done since his release, but I do know that you are commenting from a position of ignorance on several, make the most fronts. That's not where you want to be .

I am not his partner by the way. We do a podcast together and that's it.
 

pbovi

EOG Dedicated
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

Well chosen number because 8-points is the difference in the edge between a 55% capper and a 59% capper betting into -110 price points.

Quit while you are ahead, Bozo.
Last comment.

Either you're just in total denial or you're just plain stupid, or some combination thereof. Neither is good. People skills are lacking, for sure
 

Heim

EOG Master
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

Interesting (funny) exchange between Dink & Donaghy on your FB page Paul....who would have guessed they knew each other.
 

2W2P2S

EOG Dedicated
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

I can do without the backhanded character assassinations Crick.

Let me put it bluntly. I was privy to this as it was it was unfolding and have had multiple conversations with him then and do now. I make a determination based on my gut, which almost always points me in the right direction.

You don't know his wife, you don't know the publisher and you don't know his current state of mind while you are relying on a journalist that clearly had an agenda.

Not suggesting to be in agreement with everything he has done since his release, but I do know that you are commenting from a position of ignorance on several, make the most fronts. That's not where you want to be .

I am not his partner by the way. We do a podcast together and that's it.
Yes, you believe what Donaghy tells you.

I understand the parable of the scorpion and the frog.
 
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

i think I missed that one too....unless it was the one where he wanted to friend me and i tried to politely pass... I do not know him but I certainly know some that do.....I like Paul...the funny thing about Paul is he admits he makes very little money as a tout and I have seen him bet at the track and he is a pretty large player...i also trust him with money and I don't say that about many
I think he touts to impress people...just my opinion but it's the only thing that makes sense...Also I thinks, despite what he says, he loves these threads....he could easily avoid them and he will never change anyone's mind.... different kind of guy but I do like him...for the record I do not follow him
 

pbovi

EOG Dedicated
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

Yes, you believe what Donaghy tells you.

I understand the parable of the scorpion and the frog.
85% of any message is delivered via non verbal communication. I do not take what anybody tells me at face value. Figure that out.
 
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

Groovin, these forums are your life and just looking at this stuff makes me think of long homework assignments back in 8th grade. I don't have time for this
You and I have roughly the same number of posts per the time we've been registered here. I'd be surprised if I've written more than 50 words a day to forums this year; most of my forum time is spent updating the list of celeb obituaries in an RTP thread. Meanwhile this thread is about a fraud tout who spends every night sweating his tiny baseball bets on Twitter and complaining about all his supposed bad beats, as if he's never won a game in extra innings or gotten lucky. You'd rather I spend my time selling -EV picks and spending all night sweating them? If you "don't have time for this," don't repeatedly defend the indefensible parts of the VI grading system.

Sportsbook.ag is a sponsor as I repeatedly stated. This was about grading as it relates to VI. Their lines vary slightly from time to time. I challenge you to examine all picks and tell me if any inflated or deflated lines made a difference in my record. They did not.
This thread is about Dave Cokin's record, not yours. You responded to a thread about Dave to defend their grading system.

But on the topic of your picks, sportsbook.ag is a very square book and the lines vary a lot more than "slightly." A book can deal heavily shaded lines if they attract square clientele and can just stiff winners at will. Looking at your last 10 picks graded vs sb.ag lines, and using the SBR half point calculator to compare them to Bookmaker (I don't think too many people would dispute that Bookmaker has the highest limits of any US facing book), we get:

[TABLE="width: 448"]
   

[TD="colspan: 2"]CRIS line at release
[/TD]

Inflation


[TD="align: right"]10-Jun[/TD]

GST/CLE un207

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]206[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.2%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]23-May[/TD]

TOR +6

[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.3%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]21-May[/TD]

TOR +6.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.1%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]17-May[/TD]

TOR +11

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]6-May[/TD]

ATL +3

[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.9%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]29-Apr[/TD]

TOR +2.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.1%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]13-Apr[/TD]

MIN -9

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]13-Apr[/TD]

LAL +6.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]21-Mar[/TD]

PHX +2.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]8-Feb[/TD]

POR/MEM ov198

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]197.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.0%[/TD]


[/TABLE]

That's an average inflation of 2.5%. That may seem like "slightly" to a layman, but 2% is a huge difference relative to sports betting edges. Your VI record normalized for -110 is only 1.17% above breakeven, and Dave's is lower.

On March 23rd, I personally played Portland -5.5, in two spots, and had it graded at 6.
VI's line feed has something like 35 independent line sources. At the time you released Portland, BetOnline was the only book on their odds feed with -5.5, most books had -6, and Golden Nugget, Cantor, Peppermill, Stations, Westgate, William Hill in Vegas all had -6.5, and Bovada and Pinny had -6.5 offshore, so -6 was clearly the consensus line. More -5.5s popped up later. If you got -5.5 at the time of release in two places, congrats, you have great outs, but they were not market representative.

In about 20% of the cases I get a worse line than what I post and about 10% of the time I get better as many locals take a position and/or always shade high/favorite.
This is an incredible defense. You advertise yourself as a professional bettor yet can't even get your own lines 20% of the time. That's an indictment of the VI grading system more than anything I could say.

What it boils down to is that you will never ever be satisfied as you raise the bar to perfection and way above what is reasonable for the average bettor or anybody even moderately above. You micromanage everything.

A few years ago I made the statement that you would 'find a pimple on J Lo's ass' if she were buck naked in front of you. I stand by that.

I don't fault you for being an obsessive compulsive as that's how your wired.
You can't even get your own line 20% of the time with a professional's dedication to line shopping, and that's prior to any customers causing steam or anything, but I'm the one making invalid arguments. Fantastic.

It is incredibly simple to determine a market consensus line. Most touts don't do it because they don't win.

You always have the great alternative, this time Sharp Sports Betting. A few years ago it was Scott Kellen. How did that work out?
Kellen's grading is fine as well. I first found out about him via an SSB employee, actually. Kellen's no longer touting but he gives his picks for free. He had a bunch of props he gave out for the Super Bowl where a line history is hard to find and he specified they were unofficial, but here are his official playoff picks:

[TABLE="width: 448"]
   

[TD="colspan: 2"]CRIS line at release
[/TD]

Inflation


[TD="align: right"]7-Feb[/TD]

DEN/CAR un22

[TD="align: right"]-120[/TD]

un22

[TD="align: right"]-115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-1.0%
[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]24-Jan[/TD]

ARI/CAR ov47.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]

ov48

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.4%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]17-Jan[/TD]

DEN -7

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-1.1%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]16-Jan[/TD]

KC/NE un44

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]44[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]15-Jan[/TD]

CAR -1.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-1.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.1%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]15-Jan[/TD]

ARI -7

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.1%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]10-Jan[/TD]

GB/WAS ov45.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]45.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]9-Jan[/TD]

GB +1

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.1%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]9-Jan[/TD]

CIN +3

[TD="align: right"]-120[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-120[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0%[/TD]


[/TABLE]

So an average inflation of only 0.3% compared to CRIS. As I'm sure I said, when I was a customer, when a game fell close to the number he polled his subscribers asking what line they got, and IMO was overly conservative a few times.

I don't look at their baseball grading. Don't care.
You are commenting in a thread about a guy who is primarily a baseball tout about VI's grading policy when you don't know or care about the policy. Makes perfect sense.
 

pbovi

EOG Dedicated
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

i think I missed that one too....unless it was the one where he wanted to friend me and i tried to politely pass... I do not know him but I certainly know some that do.....I like Paul...the funny thing about Paul is he admits he makes very little money as a tout and I have seen him bet at the track and he is a pretty large player...i also trust him with money and I don't say that about many
I think he touts to impress people...just my opinion but it's the only thing that makes sense...Also I thinks, despite what he says, he loves these threads....he could easily avoid them and he will never change anyone's mind.... different kind of guy but I do like him...for the record I do not follow him
Thanks. Appreciate the kind words.

I do not love these threads. Exasperating and distracting but I am at times easily sucked in. As the masses pile on, I feel compelled to fend off the attacks along with the ignorant, thoughtless and oft times baseless comments. Tout stuff.

The money I make as a tout is all relative. All depends on who you ask. That said, having people win is the most important thing. I had my own site for 2 years and offered a full refund of $ if I did not hit greater than 52%.
 

pbovi

EOG Dedicated
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

You and I have roughly the same number of posts per the time we've been registered here. I'd be surprised if I've written more than 50 words a day to forums this year; most of my forum time is spent updating the list of celeb obituaries in an RTP thread. Meanwhile this thread is about a fraud tout who spends every night sweating his tiny baseball bets on Twitter and complaining about all his supposed bad beats, as if he's never won a game in extra innings or gotten lucky. You'd rather I spend my time selling -EV picks and spending all night sweating them? If you "don't have time for this," don't repeatedly defend the indefensible parts of the VI grading system.



This thread is about Dave Cokin's record, not yours. You responded to a thread about Dave to defend their grading system.

But on the topic of your picks, sportsbook.ag is a very square book and the lines vary a lot more than "slightly." A book can deal heavily shaded lines if they attract square clientele and can just stiff winners at will. Looking at your last 10 picks graded vs sb.ag lines, and using the SBR half point calculator to compare them to Bookmaker (I don't think too many people would dispute that Bookmaker has the highest limits of any US facing book), we get:

[TABLE="width: 448"]
   

[TD="colspan: 2"]CRIS line at release[/TD]

Inflation


[TD="align: right"]10-Jun[/TD]

GST/CLE un207

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]206[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.2%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]23-May[/TD]

TOR +6

[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.3%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]21-May[/TD]

TOR +6.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.1%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]17-May[/TD]

TOR +11

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]6-May[/TD]

ATL +3

[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.9%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]29-Apr[/TD]

TOR +2.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.1%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]13-Apr[/TD]

MIN -9

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]13-Apr[/TD]

LAL +6.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]21-Mar[/TD]

PHX +2.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]8-Feb[/TD]

POR/MEM ov198

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]197.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.0%[/TD]


[/TABLE]

That's an average inflation of 2.5%. That may seem like "slightly" to a layman, but 2% is a huge difference relative to sports betting edges. Your VI record normalized for -110 is only 1.17% above breakeven, and Dave's is lower.



VI's line feed has something like 35 independent line sources. At the time you released Portland, BetOnline was the only book on their odds feed with -5.5, most books had -6, and Golden Nugget, Cantor, Peppermill, Stations, Westgate, William Hill in Vegas all had -6.5, and Bovada and Pinny had -6.5 offshore, so -6 was clearly the consensus line. More -5.5s popped up later. If you got -5.5 at the time of release in two places, congrats, you have great outs, but they were not market representative.



This is an incredible defense. You advertise yourself as a professional bettor yet can't even get your own lines 20% of the time. That's an indictment of the VI grading system more than anything I could say.



You can't even get your own line 20% of the time with a professional's dedication to line shopping, and that's prior to any customers causing steam or anything, but I'm the one making invalid arguments. Fantastic.

It is incredibly simple to determine a market consensus line. Most touts don't do it because they don't win.



Kellen's grading is fine as well. I first found out about him via an SSB employee, actually. Kellen's no longer touting but he gives his picks for free. He had a bunch of props he gave out for the Super Bowl where a line history is hard to find and he specified they were unofficial, but here are his official playoff picks:

[TABLE="width: 448"]
   

[TD="colspan: 2"]CRIS line at release[/TD]

Inflation


[TD="align: right"]7-Feb[/TD]

DEN/CAR un22

[TD="align: right"]-120[/TD]

un22

[TD="align: right"]-115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-1.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]24-Jan[/TD]

ARI/CAR ov47.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]

ov48

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.4%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]17-Jan[/TD]

DEN -7

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-1.1%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]16-Jan[/TD]

KC/NE un44

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]44[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]15-Jan[/TD]

CAR -1.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-1.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.1%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]15-Jan[/TD]

ARI -7

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.1%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]10-Jan[/TD]

GB/WAS ov45.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]45.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]9-Jan[/TD]

GB +1

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.1%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]9-Jan[/TD]

CIN +3

[TD="align: right"]-120[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-120[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0%[/TD]


[/TABLE]

So an average inflation of only 0.3% compared to CRIS. As I'm sure I said, when I was a customer, when a game fell close to the number he polled his subscribers asking what line they got, and IMO was overly conservative a few times.



You are commenting in a thread about a guy who is primarily a baseball tout about VI's grading policy when you don't know or care about the policy. Makes perfect sense.
Groovin, you will always paper someone into submission. I literally can't get past the first line or 2. Send me the crib notes. Just tell me how many games I 'stole' via Sportsbook.ag and how my record would have changed.

The vast majority of my posts were horses, most often the track, the horse and the race number.
 
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

Gee - Breaking News: Some touts inflate their records! Bears shit in the woods. HRC is a lying scum, should be in prison! Timeshare sales guy's (formerly me) stretch the truth a bit, or a lot. Next? Groovin, take my friends pbovi's advice: calm the fuck down, Dude!
Utterly bizarre that Dave is advertising "+13u this year" on one site when he's -24u on another and supposedly "having the worst run of his life" yet you claim that I'm the one with the reputation that's less than sterling. Elsewhere another tout featured in the Deadspin article is challenging me to confront him in person and fight him, but I need to "calm down." Ok then.

Dave saying he's "having a bad run" is part of the con. "How many other touts admit that?" Fezzik buried followers on the old LVA board and and had a 5 year run where he picked around 49.5% normalized for -110, including a 2 year stretch at 44-45%. He wrote something about how "I'm not ashamed to admit I had a bad year where I picked 49%" and people ate it up for his "refreshing honesty." Well no, it's not "a bad year" it's a bad 5 years, and the most recent "bad year" (really two years) was 44-45%.
 
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

Thanks. Appreciate the kind words.

I do not love these threads. Exasperating and distracting but I am at times easily sucked in. As the masses pile on, I feel compelled to fend off the attacks along with the ignorant, thoughtless and oft times baseless comments. Tout stuff.
You have yet to refute a single thing I've said about the VI grading policy.
 

GameBred

I Trade Therefore I Am
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

Last comment.

Either you're just in total denial or you're just plain stupid, or some combination thereof. Neither is good. People skills are lacking, for sure
Thank you. This is done and dusted. You simply didn't understand the deception involved in that 59% comment; it was made from a place of ignorance, not maliciousness.
 
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

Groovin, you will always paper someone into submission. I literally can't get past the first line or 2. Send me the crib notes. Just tell me how many games I 'stole' via Sportsbook.ag and how my record would have changed.
This thread is about Dave Cokin. You admittedly do not even know how their baseball grading policy works. I looked at a decent sample of his record and the inflation vs Pinny lines was 1.2%, vs CRIS, 1.5%, which is enough to turn his overall VI record from a win to a loss.
 

2W2P2S

EOG Dedicated
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

Thanks. Appreciate the kind words.

I do not love these threads. Exasperating and distracting but I am at times easily sucked in. As the masses pile on, I feel compelled to fend off the attacks along with the ignorant, thoughtless and oft times baseless comments. Tout stuff.

The money I make as a tout is all relative. All depends on who you ask. That said, having people win is the most important thing. I had my own site for 2 years and offered a full refund of $ if I did not hit greater than 52%.
Perhaps you could do what Dink does then, all proceeds go to charity.
 

pbovi

EOG Dedicated
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

You and I have roughly the same number of posts per the time we've been registered here. I'd be surprised if I've written more than 50 words a day to forums this year; most of my forum time is spent updating the list of celeb obituaries in an RTP thread. Meanwhile this thread is about a fraud tout who spends every night sweating his tiny baseball bets on Twitter and complaining about all his supposed bad beats, as if he's never won a game in extra innings or gotten lucky. You'd rather I spend my time selling -EV picks and spending all night sweating them? If you "don't have time for this," don't repeatedly defend the indefensible parts of the VI grading system.



This thread is about Dave Cokin's record, not yours. You responded to a thread about Dave to defend their grading system.

But on the topic of your picks, sportsbook.ag is a very square book and the lines vary a lot more than "slightly." A book can deal heavily shaded lines if they attract square clientele and can just stiff winners at will. Looking at your last 10 picks graded vs sb.ag lines, and using the SBR half point calculator to compare them to Bookmaker (I don't think too many people would dispute that Bookmaker has the highest limits of any US facing book), we get:

[TABLE="width: 448"]
   

[TD="colspan: 2"]CRIS line at release[/TD]

Inflation


[TD="align: right"]10-Jun[/TD]

GST/CLE un207

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]206[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.2%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]23-May[/TD]

TOR +6

[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.3%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]21-May[/TD]

TOR +6.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.1%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]17-May[/TD]

TOR +11

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]6-May[/TD]

ATL +3

[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.9%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]29-Apr[/TD]

TOR +2.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.1%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]13-Apr[/TD]

MIN -9

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]13-Apr[/TD]

LAL +6.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]21-Mar[/TD]

PHX +2.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]8-Feb[/TD]

POR/MEM ov198

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]197.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.0%[/TD]


[/TABLE]

That's an average inflation of 2.5%. That may seem like "slightly" to a layman, but 2% is a huge difference relative to sports betting edges. Your VI record normalized for -110 is only 1.17% above breakeven, and Dave's is lower.



VI's line feed has something like 35 independent line sources. At the time you released Portland, BetOnline was the only book on their odds feed with -5.5, most books had -6, and Golden Nugget, Cantor, Peppermill, Stations, Westgate, William Hill in Vegas all had -6.5, and Bovada and Pinny had -6.5 offshore, so -6 was clearly the consensus line. More -5.5s popped up later. If you got -5.5 at the time of release in two places, congrats, you have great outs, but they were not market representative.



This is an incredible defense. You advertise yourself as a professional bettor yet can't even get your own lines 20% of the time. That's an indictment of the VI grading system more than anything I could say.



You can't even get your own line 20% of the time with a professional's dedication to line shopping, and that's prior to any customers causing steam or anything, but I'm the one making invalid arguments. Fantastic.

It is incredibly simple to determine a market consensus line. Most touts don't do it because they don't win.



Kellen's grading is fine as well. I first found out about him via an SSB employee, actually. Kellen's no longer touting but he gives his picks for free. He had a bunch of props he gave out for the Super Bowl where a line history is hard to find and he specified they were unofficial, but here are his official playoff picks:

[TABLE="width: 448"]
   

[TD="colspan: 2"]CRIS line at release[/TD]

Inflation


[TD="align: right"]7-Feb[/TD]

DEN/CAR un22

[TD="align: right"]-120[/TD]

un22

[TD="align: right"]-115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-1.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]24-Jan[/TD]

ARI/CAR ov47.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]

ov48

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.4%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]17-Jan[/TD]

DEN -7

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-1.1%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]16-Jan[/TD]

KC/NE un44

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]44[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]15-Jan[/TD]

CAR -1.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-1.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.1%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]15-Jan[/TD]

ARI -7

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.1%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]10-Jan[/TD]

GB/WAS ov45.5

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]45.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]9-Jan[/TD]

GB +1

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.1%[/TD]


[TD="align: right"]9-Jan[/TD]

CIN +3

[TD="align: right"]-120[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-120[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0%[/TD]


[/TABLE]

So an average inflation of only 0.3% compared to CRIS. As I'm sure I said, when I was a customer, when a game fell close to the number he polled his subscribers asking what line they got, and IMO was overly conservative a few times.



You are commenting in a thread about a guy who is primarily a baseball tout about VI's grading policy when you don't know or care about the policy. Makes perfect sense.
I just took another peak at this. You are saying VI has 35 line feeds?

You are delirious. Not even close. How much would you like to wager?

So now, as a defense to my assertion that I got screwed on that Portland game, you have resorted to quoting Bovada, a book whose credibility you have undermined repeatedly. Now that's funny.

Groovin, you have just proven yourself to be completely full of shit. You have undermined your own credibility. Even VI dropped Bovada, at my suggestion by the way, and here you are, Groovinmahoovin, quoting Bovada.

Got to love that one.

There was no inflation on those games btw. The results were not affected. I did not personally opt to lay the additional juice, the software assigned it. Record inflation kicks in if the results were affected by way of the slight discrepancy in line, or do you feel that someone would buy down/up to achieve whatever line the saw the play put out at?

You were all over Kellen, and he then shit the bed. Admit it. Now you're resorting to small sample sizes to fend off criticism
 
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

I just took another peak at this. You are saying VI has 35 line feeds?

You are delirious. Not even close. How much would you like to wager?

So now, as a defense to my assertion that I got screwed on that Portland game, you have resorted to quoting Bovada, a book whose credibility you have undermined repeatedly. Now that's funny.

Groovin, you have just proven yourself to be completely full of shit. You have undermined your own credibility. Even VI dropped Bovada, at my suggestion by the way, and here you are, Groovinmahoovin, quoting Bovada.

Got to love that one.

There was no inflation on those games btw. The results were not affected. I did not personally opt to lay the additional juice, the software assigned it. Record inflation kicks in if the results were affected by way of the slight discrepancy in line, or do you feel that someone would buy down/up to achieve whatever line the saw the play put out at?

You were all over Kellen, and he then shit the bed. Admit it. Now you're resorting to small sample sizes to fend off criticism
At least no payout problems like the one one your site pimps shouldnt you be at home capping games for tomorrows sheep paula ,,,:lightbulb:
 

pbovi

EOG Dedicated
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

Groovin, you will always paper someone into submission. I literally can't get past the first line or 2. Send me the crib notes. Just tell me how many games I 'stole' via Sportsbook.ag and how my record would have changed.

The vast majority of my posts were horses, most often the track, the horse and the race number.
How is the below 1% inflation when I had the worst of the number?
[TABLE="class: cms_table, width: 448"]

[TD="align: right"]8-Feb[/TD]

POR/MEM ov198

[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]197.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-110[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.0%[/TD]


[/TABLE]
 

pbovi

EOG Dedicated
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

At least no payout problems like the one one your site pimps shouldnt you be at home capping games for tomorrows sheep paula ,,,:lightbulb:
Since you sniff the assholes of every tout, you should know I don't cap baseball. :lightbulb:
 
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

Ur a clueless tout then , surprised your not an all sport capper like your brother's in arms #slimeballs :lightbulb:
 
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout


Bill Cosby is now “completely blind,” said a well-placed source, who added he is “in his own personal hell”


stick the hook in him paula for baseball wont be able to read your record kid
:LMAO
 
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

I just took another peak at this. You are saying VI has 35 line feeds?

You are delirious. Not even close. How much would you like to wager?
They have 15 Vegas books and 21 offshores listed on their feed. A few of the offshores are sister books (5Dimes and Sportbet, CarbonSports and sportsbook.ag) and maybe a couple others.

http://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/odds/offshore/line-movement/thunder-@-warriors.cfm/date/5-18-16
http://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/odds/las-vegas/line-movement/thunder-@-warriors.cfm/date/5-18-16

Also, to save you the nitpick, I am well aware that Atlantis and Peppermill are in Reno, but VI lists them with "Vegas."

So now, as a defense to my assertion that I got screwed on that Portland game, you have resorted to quoting Bovada, a book whose credibility you have undermined repeatedly. Now that's funny.
I "have resorted" to quoting every single book VI has on their feed. Yes the Bovada square line is absurd to put on a line feed considering it's essentially a one way line, but take that up with VI. If I arbitrarily ignored Bovada, I would be accused of bias. I don't consider BetOnline market reflective either, but I quoted every book they used.

Groovin, you have just proven yourself to be completely full of shit. You have undermined your own credibility. Even VI dropped Bovada, at my suggestion by the way, and here you are, Groovinmahoovin, quoting Bovada.
They still have Bovada on their line feed. They may no longer use those Bovada lines in grading picks, but I have no idea which books they do or do not currently use, as that info is no accessible to we the unwashed members of the lowly public. I quoted every single book on the feed. 8 had -6.5, 1 had -5.5, all the others had -6, so -6 was clearly the widely available line. You arguing you got screwed because 1 book out of 36 on their odds feed, a very low limit recreational book, happened to have -5.5 is a real stretch.

To save you some nitpicking time, I have also said the SBR half point calculator has some values with which I disagree, however to avoid being accused of bias from using my own numbers, I had to use something publicly available and for these purposes it's close enough.

There was no inflation on those games btw. The results were not affected. I did not personally opt to lay the additional juice, the software assigned it. Record inflation kicks in if the results were affected by way of the slight discrepancy in line, or do you feel that someone would buy down/up to achieve whatever line the saw the play put out at?
Again, the topic here is Dave Cokin, whose best results on VI are MLB, where a change in odds affects every single release, not your results oriented "it only matters if the point spread affects that particular game." If I look at 20 picks of an NBA sides record, and every single one is a half point better than the market, it's pretty safe to say the inflation is around 1.5-2%, as that's roughly the value of an NBA sides point divided by 2. It doesn't matter if none of the 20 picks happen to land on that number, the overall inflation will be 1.5-2% in the long run. If there's a small sample fluke and 3 of the 20 picks happen to land on that half point, it would be similarly inaccurate to say the overall record will be inflated by 15%.

You were all over Kellen, and he then shit the bed. Admit it.
This makes absolutely zero sense. How did he "shit the bed???" His grading is fine, I've never once said otherwise, nor has anyone offered proof otherwise that I've seen. If you're referring to the poor season he had selling picks a few years ago, 1) his plays were always graded vs fair lines 2) his abilities as a tout have nothing to do with fair grading 3) our previous convo about him was in the middle of that poor season when he'd already started 8-23, and since then, he's ahead a bit, as is his overall record, but that isn't germane to the discussion about grading. It doesn't matter if he's a coin flipper or the best in the world when the convo is the picks grading.

Most touts would hide that poor season, but on his page, it's right there, and the picks are graded vs real lines, unlike VI's closed casino lines, sportsbook.ag etc.

Now you're resorting to small sample sizes to fend off criticism
This does not even make sense. You're the one claiming the sportsbook.ag lines are fine because supposedly none of them mattered in your record over a small sample.
 
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

I really have no fight in the matter. I don't post much anymore but this thread is really out of control in a fascinating way.

Groovin may I ask how you became to loathe touts? Did you buy plays and got burned? I am sorry if you've explained why they bother so much so.

I think it's a lot of energy but I certainly don't think it's a bad use of time if you enjoy arguing, debating and are making headway in cleaning up the industry.

I don't know anything about cokin or bovi etc I work too much on trying to win to care about what others are doing.
I have always wondered this though if these guys are bad but putting a lot of effort into what they are doing why not just fade them to oblivion?
Any agent and bookie will tell you the best client is the guy who thinks he is sharp and just running bad.

I remember when I first started betting for serious money at the time (who knows maybe 300 bucks a game) a partner said dude we need to find just one guy who can hit 55% and hire him and another friend said or a guy who hits 40% and bets a lot of games! He probably is free!

Turns out he probably isn't free but I read the pregame thread and it feels like no one is seeing what I am? There is a tout losing 200 units at most 2 units per selection over 2.5 year sample size! I also sincerely doubt you're going to have a hard time getting down on the same number as a guy losing that! The writer of the article is retarded I'd found that tout they had to fire because he was so bad.. he would be employee #1. Billy Walters hired the best because they were the best with enough ineptitude and lack of work ethic the results would have to come. It would be a strange sense of job security for them I'd suppose;)

Either way thanks for the thread. Intelligent debate with some fun stuff mixed in except when I got called some names.. oh never mind that was ok too.
 
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

Sorry just reread what I wrote might be a little punch drunk from sunbelt research. Texas st only has 7 OL in their entire 2 deep this season and plans on running a almost option offense with very little experience at RB. Look for injuries mid season of any kind and it might turn into the most inept offense in cfb history. Also Qb t. Jones is great but they have just 1 returning target and lose all 6 WR's who played regularly last year and will have jucos try to play week 1. Jones might be replaced by a quicker fr. Qb or a trans. Really fun times:)

Ok I offered something useful other than failed humor. However just for visual purposes think of a office of 40% handicappers over a 5 year sample size trying to scrape together winner ate winner and for some reason youre the boss is furious whenever they unexplainable win:)
 

pbovi

EOG Dedicated
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

They have 15 Vegas books and 21 offshores listed on their feed. A few of the offshores are sister books (5Dimes and Sportbet, CarbonSports and sportsbook.ag) and maybe a couple others.

http://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/odds/offshore/line-movement/thunder-@-warriors.cfm/date/5-18-16
http://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/odds/las-vegas/line-movement/thunder-@-warriors.cfm/date/5-18-16

Also, to save you the nitpick, I am well aware that Atlantis and Peppermill are in Reno, but VI lists them with "Vegas."



I "have resorted" to quoting every single book VI has on their feed. Yes the Bovada square line is absurd to put on a line feed considering it's essentially a one way line, but take that up with VI. If I arbitrarily ignored Bovada, I would be accused of bias. I don't consider BetOnline market reflective either, but I quoted every book they used.



They still have Bovada on their line feed. They may no longer use those Bovada lines in grading picks, but I have no idea which books they do or do not currently use, as that info is no accessible to we the unwashed members of the lowly public. I quoted every single book on the feed. 8 had -6.5, 1 had -5.5, all the others had -6, so -6 was clearly the widely available line. You arguing you got screwed because 1 book out of 36 on their odds feed, a very low limit recreational book, happened to have -5.5 is a real stretch.

To save you some nitpicking time, I have also said the SBR half point calculator has some values with which I disagree, however to avoid being accused of bias from using my own numbers, I had to use something publicly available and for these purposes it's close enough.



Again, the topic here is Dave Cokin, whose best results on VI are MLB, where a change in odds affects every single release, not your results oriented "it only matters if the point spread affects that particular game." If I look at 20 picks of an NBA sides record, and every single one is a half point better than the market, it's pretty safe to say the inflation is around 1.5-2%, as that's roughly the value of an NBA sides point divided by 2. It doesn't matter if none of the 20 picks happen to land on that number, the overall inflation will be 1.5-2% in the long run. If there's a small sample fluke and 3 of the 20 picks happen to land on that half point, it would be similarly inaccurate to say the overall record will be inflated by 15%.



This makes absolutely zero sense. How did he "shit the bed???" His grading is fine, I've never once said otherwise, nor has anyone offered proof otherwise that I've seen. If you're referring to the poor season he had selling picks a few years ago, 1) his plays were always graded vs fair lines 2) his abilities as a tout have nothing to do with fair grading 3) our previous convo about him was in the middle of that poor season when he'd already started 8-23, and since then, he's ahead a bit, as is his overall record, but that isn't germane to the discussion about grading. It doesn't matter if he's a coin flipper or the best in the world when the convo is the picks grading.

Most touts would hide that poor season, but on his page, it's right there, and the picks are graded vs real lines, unlike VI's closed casino lines, sportsbook.ag etc.



This does not even make sense. You're the one claiming the sportsbook.ag lines are fine because supposedly none of them mattered in your record over a small sample.
Busy today. I interpreted your 35 line feed comment to suggest that cappers are graded based on the best of those lines which is not the case. Half or more of those are not included. Todays' assignment is below. No tout trolling. Book report due by tomorrow at 3

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/646120.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20133597
 
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

What is your line 2016 texas st vs 2015 texas st ? They were bad last yr
First off texas st wasn't terrible last year they were terribly coached and were too small on the DL but still could score on almost any play. They were a terrific over team all season and one the market never picked up on.
I'm not going to throw my numbers around publicly that's silly and you know it. You're smart enough to know a team with no backup C, LT and a all freshman DL is in super crazy bad shape now add a new coaching staff and new schemes on both sides of the ball (4-3 to 3-4 & a tailback used run O) will be lucky to win at all. They might start off playing close but I've never heard of a team having only 7 OL in my life. Most power 5 schools keep 11-13 and rsh. 2.
 
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

How about the fact that they also lost their best position and associate head coach 6 days ago when John Wiley stepped down due to personal/family problems? Do you buy that bullshit? Use your imagination to what probably happened with this guy and why he resigned. They did hire a solid OC from James Madison but their DC a hire from Gardner - Webb a low level school wasn't on anyone's radar that I heard of to move up. Could be a tough year, especially at the start for Texas State.
 
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

How about the fact that they also lost their best position and associate head coach 6 days ago when John Wiley stepped down due to personal/family problems? Do you buy that bullshit? Use your imagination to what probably happened with this guy and why he resigned. They did hire a solid OC from James Madison but their DC a hire from Gardner - Webb a low level school wasn't on anyone's radar that I heard of to move up. Could be a tough year, especially at the start for Texas State.
I can't blame the guy. It's so hard for these sbc and mac assistants who make very little money to find work when theit units fail and program is forced to fire the whole staff. Imagine being a coach with 20 years experience finally make it to fbs and you're Kent st's OC the last 2 years and are now working as a st's coach for a high school team and teaching gym. I say get out while you can.
 
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

I really have no fight in the matter. I don't post much anymore but this thread is really out of control in a fascinating way.

Groovin may I ask how you became to loathe touts? Did you buy plays and got burned? I am sorry if you've explained why they bother so much so.

I think it's a lot of energy but I certainly don't think it's a bad use of time if you enjoy arguing, debating and are making headway in cleaning up the industry
I'll be happy to elaborate on my background later when I have more time, but as I said earlier in the thread, it strikes me as strange that people are so concerned with my motives when forums/Twitter are filled with losing rec bettors who piss their money away. No one's asking these tens of thousands of people "Why do you continue to gamble and lose" yet I get asked about behaviors that at worst are a waste of time.

Forums are also filled with charlatans and stiffs who scam other people (recent ones I recall on here were Landers and Tuckman) -- I actually despise stiffs and scammers A LOT more than touts, but exposing stiffs and scammers is harder because it devolves into a he said/she said thing, and finding proof is often impossible. Two recent examples of scams I've discussed that personally affected me are Dutch Boyd's Pokerspot site which got me in the early 2000s (he openly admits in his book it was a Ponzi scheme) and Johnny Detroit stiffing me for 10k on EOG (as a thank you, his buddy at BetPhoenix gave him some of my personal info since Johnny's a BetPhoenix agent.) These scams were both conducted in public, were slam dunk scams just on the weight of the public evidence, but both these scumbags still have a lot of fans.

But here's a good example of how touts hurt us -- the media and many sportsbooks promote these idiots as experts -- an obvious example is the Westgate is raking 8% out of the SuperContest entries partially to promote "SuperContest Weekend" which is a big tout handjob fest, and since the books all advertise on gambling publications, all the publications are saying what a fantastic deal the SuperContest is, even with the raked money, and quite a few authors even insulted people like me who objected, nonsense like "anonymous critics on Twitter who probably aren't even entering the contest." The "anonymous critics on Twitter" are the only people suggesting that maybe the Westgate shouldn't be raking contest money to fund a weekend to give touts some free advertising. (For all I know, they may even be paying the touts an appearance fee.) The gambling publications don't care because they want advertising money from the Westgate. There is an argument that the net benefit of the touts is a positive because they encourage square money to go into the pool, but OTOH they also take a lot of money out in their tout fees and it's not like these guys do much betting themselves.
 

John Kelly

Born Gambler
Staff member
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

The "media" coverage on the sports betting scene here in Las Vegas is an embarrassment.

Buy an ad in Gaming Today and you not only get ad space but also several puff pieces proclaiming your business is the best in town.

The editorial and advertising departments at Gaming Today are one in the same.

Too many publicists in this city and not enough hard-hitting journalists.

Paging Jeff Haney...
 
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

The "media" coverage on the sports betting scene here in Las Vegas is an embarrassment.

Buy an ad in Gaming Today and you not only get ad space but also several puff pieces proclaiming your business is the best in town.

The editorial and advertising departments at Gaming Today are one in the same.

Too many publicists in this city and not enough hard-hitting journalists.

Paging Jeff Haney...
Didn't you go to journalism school?

Do you remember when Alan Boston got hit in the head with a lead pipe in the middle of Las Vegas Blvd between the Stardust and Riviera?

The bosses at Boyd Gaming told you not to discuss it on air and like a little bitch you said nothing.

For you to say anything about someone's journalist skills is laughable.


Dave "The MeatMan" Scandaliato
 
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

I was at a Vegas sportsbook in a high-end casino back in 2005.

The manager had asked me what I was doing that night and I said I was taking Paul Bovi out to dinner.

The sportsbook manager told me to avoid him(Bovi) at all costs.


Dave "The MeatMan" Scandaliato
 

winkyduck

TYVM Morgan William!!!
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

No offense Winky but this is far from informative. You have no idea what his record is or anything else other than Dave tips well. I doubt a lot of waitresses post here.

Reads like a suck-up to someone in town with a "name" that maybe you dine with occasionally.

BTW the only reason I mention this is because my first exposure to you (1999/2000ish) was you were known as the guy that exposed touts.

Not all your methods were intricate levels of deception but your report back to the forums was informative, detailed, and probably saved a lot of greenhorns back in the day.

Now? Not so much.

Just surprised you went from someone trying to save idiots from paying for picks to giving them reach-arounds on the forums.

Carry on.
I'd LOVE to bust lying scumbag touts but it is harder and harder to do. The pay phone I used at the bank I used - that is lonnnnnng gone. I have trouble finding a pay phone and one that takes incoming calls and is in a quiet area is almost impossible. I sooooooooooo wanna bust as many as I can but it is super hard to do any more
 
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

I was at a Vegas sportsbook in a high-end casino back in 2005.

The manager had asked me what I was doing that night and I said I was taking Paul Bovi out to dinner.

The sportsbook manager told me to avoid him(Bovi) at all costs.


Dave "The MeatMan" Scandaliato
Funny. I'd imagine the ratio that told Bovi or anyone else for that matter was 10-1 they said the same thing about you. Maybe more.
 
Re: Dave Cokin, portrait of a fraud tout

How about the fact that they also lost their best position and associate head coach 6 days ago when John Wiley stepped down due to personal/family problems? Do you buy that bullshit? Use your imagination to what probably happened with this guy and why he resigned. They did hire a solid OC from James Madison but their DC a hire from Gardner - Webb a low level school wasn't on anyone's radar that I heard of to move up. Could be a tough year, especially at the start for Texas State.
How much are you charging this year, Lee Sterling?
 
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